Join us as we dive into the world of social media and discuss our own interactions with it, the way it's shifted our perceptions of reality and the truth, and its profound impact on the way news is shared and reported. Episode content warnings: police brutality, political gaslighting
Join us as we dive into the world of social media and discuss our own interactions with it, the way it's shifted our perceptions of reality and the truth, and its profound impact on the way news is shared and reported.
Episode content warnings: police brutality, political gaslighting
Follow us on instagram @wethepeoplepresent
Resources and action items on our Linktree
Cover artwork by Be Boggs
Music by Malaventura
Full transcript available HERE
Lyonel: We're We the People
Tina: And we're recording from the occupied territory of the Odawa, Ojibwe, Potawatomi people,
Dana: Or what you probably know to be Chicago,
Aja: And the Chumash, Kizh, Tataviam people-
Lyonel: or Los Angeles.
Dana: Guess what. We're all on stolen land. Take a second to learn whose land you occupy
Tina: And take meaningful direct action to decolonize and restore these lands to their rightful stewards.
Aja: Action Items and resources can be found in the link tree on our Instagram @wethepeoplepresent
(music)
Lyonel: We're We the People
Tina: And we're recording from the occupied territory of the Odawa, Ojibwe, Potawatomi people,
Dana: Or what you probably know to be Chicago,
Aja: And the Chumash, Kizh, Tataviam people-
Lyonel: or Los Angeles.
Dana: Guess what. We're all on stolen land. Take a second to learn whose land you occupy
Tina: And take meaningful direct action to decolonize and restore these lands to their rightful stewards.
Aja: Action Items and resources can be found in the link tree on our Instagram @wethepeoplepresent
(music)
Lyonel: What's uuuuuuup!
Tina: Hey!
Dana: It's us your four friends. We the People. I'm Dana Saleh Omar.
Lyonel: I'm Lyonel.
Tina: I'm Tina.
Aja: And I'm Aja.
Dana: Welcome to this week's episode. We're gonna start this off a little differently this time around, we're gonna go- kind of do a round robin. Just so you guys get to get to know us a little better.
So I'm gonna start I'm going to ask Tina. Tina Tina Tina!
Tina: Uh huh!
Dana: We're gonna do a quick Friend or Foe game. So I'm going to start with your phone. Is it a friend or foe?
Tina: Ughghg
(laughing)
Tina: That's a hard question to give a one word answer to it. It's the friend of productivity for me. Well I don't know if that's true. God damn it, Tina! I'm an I'm going to say friend because it's useful, but so too like my mental health and, you know it easily goes downhill.
Dana: Great. Okay. And exercise. Friend or foe?
(laughing)
Tina: Oh Dana! You know I don't exercise!
(laughing)
Tina: It always makes me feel good but I never do. I like going on walks- walks are exercise. I love a good walk.
Dana: I know! Especially like during this lock down it's been like it's certainly a bit of a meditation for sure.
Tina: Yeah. Now that it's cold though it's a little bit of a struggle. Yeah, I'm gonna say friend, but like do I see this friend very often? No. We are estranged from each other.
(laughing)
Dana: Should there be a third option that's a frenemy?
(laughing)
Lyonel: Yeah
Tina: Yeah. Definitely both of them are frenemies, for sure.
Dana: Right. Ok your turn! Go!
Tina: Ok my turn. Aja! Friend or Foe: Baths.
Aja: Oh. Friend.
(laughing)
One hundo percent my friend. I don't- like your relationship with exercise, I don't do it as much as I should, but I will say it's because I haven't had a working bathtub in years and now I do so I always forget that I can. And then I do and I'm like, "this is what my body needed."
And then I feel bad about using water.
Tina: (laughs) Yeah.
Aja: So... frenemy.
Tina: Yeah. And second one: Food TV.
Aja: Friend! I want to watch people cook things...
Tina: uh huh
Aja: ...all the time, any time.
(laughing)
Aja: That's it! Friend.
(laughing)
Tina: Ok your turn!
Aja: Lyonel. Friend or foe: Morning Routine.
Lyonel: Friend
Aja: What is your morning routine? Do you have one?
Lyonel: HA!
(laughing)
Lyonel: Yeah. It's...I wake up in a panic. I have three alarm clocks. When the third one gets up, I'm late. So I make coffee. I have a banana. And yeah. Then I start. Three alarm clocks, though that's my morning routine.
Aja: Oh my God. I love it
(laughing)
Aja: I guess then friend or foe: Coffee.
Lyonel: Foe.
Dana: Really??
Lyonel: I love coffee but I hate bad coffee. So I don't really know what you meant by that. Like is coffee itself 'friend or foe' like having it?
Aja: Yeah, I guess? I guess my thought from that was I'm doing this cleanse thing and we're not supposed to have caffeine. So I guess caffeine is more the question.
Lyonel: Got it. I'm going to say friend.
Aja: Great. I love it. Coffee. And your response.
Lyonel: I had bad coffee this morning.
Aja: Noooo
Lyonel: I had bad coffee this morning so that's why I was like. Ah. Fucking foe, but caffeine's friend.
Aja: It is really disappointing you get a bad cup of coffee.
Tina: Yeah.
Lyonel: Yeah, for sure.
Tina: Ok you ask Dana now.
Lyonel: Um, I kind of get this wrong though, I know I thought of friend or foe but I realized I created 'would you rather', so can I just do that?
All: Yeah!!
Lyonel: Okay. As Dana where do you get your news?
Dana: Reddit.
Lyonel: Great.
Dana: Reddit's my main news source.
Lyonel: All right. One minute of burpees or three shots of warm Malort?
(groans)
Tina: Oh no!
Dana: Burpees.
Lyonel: Non-stop burpees
Dana: Burpees. Burpees. Fuck it.
Lyonel: Oh my God. Really?
Dana: I hate Malort.
Tina: Malort is poison!!
Lyonel: Oooooohhhhh. Gros.
Dana: It's like Lysol. Like I just, I can't, I can't do it warm Lysol.
Tina: Ssorry to the city of Chicago, but...you know
Dana: You know I love you Chicago.
Tina: It's bad news.
Dana: I can't do it.
Lyonel: Teaching a workshop- hear the whole question and then the timer starts- this is very Supermarket Sweep, which I've been watching if you haven't-
Dana: Me too!!
Lyonel: Episode one is so good! It's so good. I watched it twice.
Dana: And I love her as the host now.
Lyonel: She's so good
Dana: It's so much fun. But I used to watch them as a kid all the time.
Lyonel: OK. What are you grabbing for- 15 seconds, what are the top three items you're gonna grab at the store? Go.
Dana: Well with this new one it's the roses! The roses, the diapers, and...oh fuck...the hams??
Lyonel: YES! You couldn't get it wrong, you just had to grab three! Roses, ham, and diapers. Nice.
Tina: Should I watch Supermarket Sweet?? This is...intriguing!
Aja: YES
Lyonel: It's so good.
Aja: I haven't started yet, but I'm amped.
Dana: It's so much fun!
Lyonel: Teaching a workshop on superheroes and magic to 30 children OR 30 seconds uninterrupted with Donald Trump and Mike Pence and a mute button.
Dana: Wait...
Lyonel: I'll repeat the question.
Dana: Do they get a mute button?
Lyonel: You get to mute them so you're the only one that gets to be heard talking, so you can say whatever you want. Teaching a workshop on superheroes and magic to 30 children or 30 seconds with Donald Trump and Mike Pence and a mute button.
Dana: I'm very intrigued by the 30 kids being superheroes. That sounds adorable as hell. But...the mute button.
(laughing)
I want to yell.
Lyonel: I got shit to say.
Dana: I want to be like Obama right now on his like campaign trail.
Lyonel: Beijing Barry?
(laughing)
Dana: He's out here like...tearing that guy a new asshole in every city goes to, and it's just like it's *muah*. It's so good
Lyonel: So delicious.
Dana: But that question leads me to the news thing. The news source. Do you all use social media as a use sou- as a "use source" (laughs) as a *news source?
(laughing)
Lyonel: Yeah I do actually.
Dana: What news source? Which one do you use and how do you feel about the platform? Tina.
Tina: Oh me oh my. I definitely get a lot of my news from social media. I think like across platforms but mostly, honestly, I hate to admit this but I get a lot of news from Twitter. I get a lot of like, I don't go down like Twitter- well I do sometimes go down Twitter rabbit holes, but I like will find I feel like I'll get updates on stuff on Twitter and then like, do my own research off of that.
So I try to like not completely rely on Twitter for stuff- but I feel like I also get a lot of not news, but like a lot of resources and a lot of details about stuff on Instagram. So yeah I definitely get most of it- because I don't like have live TV and I don't watch the news. So yeah a lot of it social media for sure. What about you, Aja?
Aja: I usually just check my email every morning because I get like, the New York Times daily newsletter and I think another one but I don't remember which.
So I read those every morning and then I see a lot of, I don't know I get a lot of my action items from Instagram, but I find that that sometimes is more work because I've had more than one experience of like, googling something before I share it and then finding that the person didn't google it before they shared it. And I just feel like that's such bad, bad news so I tend to like see a lot of stuff on Instagram and then not share it unless it comes from someone that I know is not going to post something bogus on accident.
And I don't really use Twitter or anything.
Tina: Good.
Aja: Instagram is pretty much the only social media I use. So some of it from that.
Dana: How do you feel about it?
Aja: And then my friends! About Instagram? (laughs)
(laughing)
Aja: Ummmm. You know it's like a love-hate relationship. Definitely a frenemy. I feel like, I don't know, I just posted yesterday- one of the things we did for my birthday was go drop off our ballots to vote.
And I posted it on Instagram to be like, "hey go vote" and...with a couple of pictures. And it had been up for like most of the day and then a friend, or an acquaintance, I don't even know where I know her from, sent me message that was like, "Hey your address is pretty much fully visible in the second image" and I was like, "Of course it is because that's... just how I roll."
And I actually had a whole thing in my head about like, well I already have all these likes, which is so stupid because, like who fucking cares about the validation of Instagram, and my friends- like my friends love me regardless of whether or not my post is on Instagram.
I absolutely don't want my address- my home address on the Internet for people to see.
Dana: I'm recording live from outside your house now.
Aja: Oh boy! You're welcome. So yeah I had I took it down and reposted it and used that as a way to point out a kindness someone did me and you know, remind people to take care of each other. So I think it's good.
I think it can be good for you know, spreading solidarity and accountability, but I think it's also very toxic. Which I'm sure we'll get into.
Dana: But that "like" thing, isn't that "like" thing incredible.
Aja: That "like" thing! That validation like, "Oh I know what it means my 118 likes, should I keep myself in danger??" NO!!!
(laughing)
Aja: What?? Aja, take your fucking address down! Yeah.
Tina: Lyonel, what about you where do you get your news?
Lyonel: So I get my news/sources from, I read a lot of like the Wall Street Journal, and The New Yorker, BBC, and NPR are like my main ones that I used just to like scroll- they pop up on my phone.
I feel like I get conversation starters from Instagram. Fuck Facebook. But Instagram and Twitter, not so much Twitter, but Instagram. But I but I look at those more- like those four sites a lot a lot more. Just because I don't like to argue if I don't know what I'm talking about. I just want to know what I'm actually sticking up for in this argument before I'm about to go off because I don't want to be embarrassed if someone's like, "that's not true."
And I'm like, "Fuck I should have looked that up."
Tina: I mean that's I feel like more than a lot of people do.
Aja: MM hm.
Tina: Being informed on a thing before you go into battle.
Lyonel: Yeah well because I think the difference is, I am I getting news or am I getting a conversation? But it's like just because you see it does it mean that it's news. It's just a topic but like "news" to me it's like getting facts. So like just because you see it pop up that's not the fact of what's happening.
Dana: Are you on TikTok?
Lyonel: Yeah.
Dana: How do you feel about TikTok.
Lyonel: I fucking love TikTok. I love, LOVE TikTok. I think it's so great.
Dana: What do you love about it?
Lyonel: I love that I can learn dance moves.
Dana: I know! That is intriguing to me. That's the one thing that I'm like- Oh that's one reason to be on it.
Lyonel: Yeah! Well you learn dance moves but also like people- you can do whatever you want on TikTok which is what I love. I love it. TikTok is just freedom.
Like, there's people that like I love working out- like I'm a fitness instructor, I'm a personal trainer and like you'll see people that are like, "one hand, one hand, two hands, two hands" and they'll go for like a push up to a high plank, and they like plank jacks but then you can skip to the next video and it's like this 96 year old woman like. BOW. Dab-da-dab-da-dab DAB DAB DAB DAB
(laughing)
Or it's like the next video is like these twelve year olds are like, "you know what is dumber than like school? You not voting. I'm not old enough." Like they can make all these videos and it's just- there's no rules and there's no way to get it right or wrong, you can just be creative. I think that's so dope.
Dana: You know there's there's one thing that I I am seeing from afar, and this is like a bigger thing than what I am loving seeing, it's like various Arabs or Middle Eastern people like posting about their culture or like a dabke movement which is huge in Palestine. That's a big thing that I see a lot.
And like, thinking back now to when I was twelve or thirteen, it- certainly I was not as proud or as, like you know I had a conflicted relationship with all of that before I worked through it and I think a lot of people in my generation were the same- especially first generation kids.
But it's incredible to see like kids now seeing it like on a platform and making it popular and having it have like all of these views, and having people be interested and invested in it.
It's so cool what it does for their pride from where they're from. So that's been really, really cool to see. Especially on TikTok.
Lyonel: It is! It's such-I feel like a lot of times with like news sources or things like, that people are like "you can't trust it, there's too many sources out there, there's too many things," but love the Will Smith quote where he talks about, like "police brutality didn't get worse-" - I might be butchering this, so we'll fact check it but like, "police brutality didn't get worse. We just got phones," like that's the sum of it, we'll find out the exact quote.
But I think it's so true it's like, we just get access to things quicker because we have technology, but it's not like things were any different than they were 20 years ago. We just can see it now. So you can see yourself represented in a way that they could filter that out 20 years ago, or not be interested.
Dana: Yeah.
Tina: Yeah- it's good and bad ways. Like you were saying.
Lyonel: Fact check! Will Smith said, and I quote, "Racism isn't getting worse, it's getting filmed." And like, it's just TikTok is a vehicle for us to see more things now, which is back to your point. You can see for yourself.
Dana: For sure. That kind of leads us to this episode of The Daily, which is a podcast by NPR, specifically- that's the New York Times. They do a daily episode every week--or every DAY
(laughing)
Then it would be called "the weekly," Dana! But this episode was called The Misinformation Test for Social Media and it was, just the episode notes say that "Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube have invested in significant amount of time and money trying to avoid the mistakes made during the 2016 election," which if we all remembered, that was a gigantic cluster fuck- in both 2016 and 2020 Russia and supposedly Iran, but that seems, we can talk about that more later.
But there have been interferences in our election via social media. So this episode goes into that and also the response to that, which is essentially attack on free speech, or freedom of speech, and how that's the Republican response essentially right now.
Yeah. This all stemmed from the Hunter Biden story that came out.
Tina: About his his laptop and compromised access. It came from, I think it came from Rudy Giuliani and it was published in The New York Post, but then was like basically Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube all kind of went different routes deciding how to respond to it.
And Twitter kind of took the hardest line and decided they were not going to allow posts linking to the article until it had been vetted in fact checked. And then like Dana said, like the outcry against that was a lot of conservative politicians and people coming forward and being like, "this is an attack on free speech," - which Dana when you texted us this episode we were talking a lot about like truth on social media, and like how do you sift through all of the information that's available? Because you really can like tailor your own social media feed to reflect your own values that already exist.
Dana: Your own confirmation bias, which is a whole other thing to chat about. But yeah I brought this up because I think now more than ever- and I feel like we could talk about what has happened on social media in the last seven months because I feel like there's been a shift obviously to reflect the revolt the resist the revolution that's happening right now.
And I feel like it's important to talk about all of the pitfalls of social media along with the joyful things too and how people, how we all deal. Because there is no solution right now. That was the biggest flaw I think with The Social Dilemma that came out on Netflix. There's there's no solution.
They pointed out all the flaws but they didn't give a valid solution that doesn't place it on us as the individual users, when it's so clear that it needs to be regulated in society like it can't just be us- it has to be regulated, right.
Tina: Yeah.
Dana: I guess that's my first question: do you think that social media needs to be regulated. You know my answer. But...
Tina: Yeah...
Aja: Yeah I mean, yeah but by who? Like obviously I don't think that untruths should be out there for anyone to find and see, especially with confirmation bias, but like who gets to decide when something is fact checked enough? I think it goes into really dark territory of like understanding who gets to say and why. Because the sides of the table are so divided.
But I absolutely think that things that are not- I mean, I wish that we could trust journalism.
Dana: Me too
Lyonel: Was this an issue, in your opinion and to your question, was this an issue before the 2016 election.
Dana: Yes. I think the birth of the iPhone and then subsequently everything after MySpace because MySpace was dope.
(laughing)
Tina: Bless MySpace Tom!
Dana: When Facebook was just the college thing. Oh. Remember that y'all? That was so great.
Tina: I'm too young to remember that.
Dana: I know.
Tina: I'm not really.
Lyonel: Well. I guess my question is bigger, are we talking about regulating news? Or are we just talking about like letting Facebook be a place at which we- like a social forum to talk about things? Or a place to pass around quotable information?
Because I think that it is a social platform so you can talk about issues, but I am finding that since the 2016 election, and since we've seen like a president who uses Twitter to literally like gaslight issues, it's the idea now that Facebook is a hub for finding information. Or that Facebook is a hub or a source for information- which is weird because it was never that in the first place.
So that's why I guess my question is like, do we just govern what people can talk about on Facebook? Or is the problem that like Facebook should not be used at all to pass around?Shouldn't be a place to quote from. Or should it be regulated?
Tina: Well the first part of that question may be really interested because I think that like journalism or like news sources vs. Facebook like, they have become so intertwined and people are creating news content for use on social media- which I think is where the line gets blurry. Because like there is a journalistic code of ethics, there is like oversight in that arena, but the fact that things are so immediately available on Facebook and on other social media platforms, the fact that people are now having to create content to be able to compete for visibility on those platforms, I think is what has compromised-
I mean like this is not to say that like journalistic oversight was perfect you know, to begin with or that like it was completely like perfect at rooting out like false information, or information that's like slanderous or anything like that. But there was at least like a clear like line that you could follow to to figure it out and to deal with that kind of information- whereas like when things get shared on social media like they can then later be revealed to be false.
But by the time that process is done they've already been shared so widely that people have seen and consumed them. And then like don't either don't get the information or refuse to hear the information that it was actually false. So I think like the immediacy of social media platforms as a place of sharing information has compromised the way that we gather and then report on news as it is.
And I don't know- like that's not an answer to the question of like well then what purpose does social media serve in terms of sharing information. But yeah I don't know if there is a clean answer.
Dana: The code of ethics thing, Tina. That's what I'm stuck on. Because I feel like that journalism has a code of ethics but social media doesn't. But it is like the quickest way that we get news and it feels not productive to not use those tools.
But at the same time to answer your question, Lyonel, if you start to- and we saw this in The Daily episode- if you start to monitor what people can post then they they attack the freedom- or they used freedom of speech as an attack.
But if you're talking lies all the time. If you're literally just saying bullshit and then that bullshit funnels out to all of these people that follow you and then their confirmation bias confirms it. Even after somebody says that's not true. Then it just leads to like a bunch of people believing things like the Qanon on conspiracy or like...
And that's what's so frustrating too, if you bring up something if you say that that's not true they're confirmation bias is already confirmed that.
Aja: Well. And I guess it's kind of scary just piggybacking on that is that like, it's not even that they're they don't think that they're spouting lies. They think that they're sharing in the truth whether it's Qanon on or a less conspiratorial...?
Dana: Yeah! Sure!
Aja: Just like just like a you know general conservative Republican sharing things that they think are true- even you know people who align with our beliefs and are more liberal. But the number of times I have googled something either you know, trying to figure out what I can do, like what action items are immediate, or you know how I can share- if this information is the best information to share- the number of times that I've googled and not it been from 7 years ago and already resolved, or not completely true, or the person didn't read the full article and completely missed the point.
It's just so it's so infuriating. That people- I wish people would do their own research.
Dana: Yeah. And I think that comes down to how most of us were educated because I think because we- and I'll speak for myself and I'm showing my age here that because I was 12 or 13 when the internet started to emerge I had teachers that didn't let me source only the Internet.
Aja: Right.
Dana: Then I had to go in and I had to find the encyclopedia- and remember encyclopedias?
Aja: Yes!
Lyonel: Oh my God I had all of them.
Dana: Weren't they great? They were my favorite.
Lyonel: Those heavy books! So heavy.
Dana: I loved them so much! Anyway. But yeah you wouldn't have to go into the library and you'd have to source things and then you would have to- if you found an article an online article you wouldn't then have to source the information that came from that article, too. So like you would read the article, and then you would look at their sources, and look up those sources. And I think and I'm going to generalize here, but I think a lot of people on Facebook are older came into the Internet at an older age and weren't taught how to use it and how to use it successfully.
And so I think where the disconnect comes is that they- anything that they read, they don't source check it and I think
Aja: Unless they don't like it.
Dana: Unless they don't like it. But I think that's like honestly, I think that's where the- because I think a lot of Trump supporters are older and a lot of the, let's just call it what it is a lot of people that are part of the cult, because I think that's what this is, like the cult of the Trump phenomenon, believe in those conspiracy theories because they were not successfully taught with the Internet, with how to use it.
Like I think that's where the breakdown ends. But that's just me.
Lyonel: Also friends that cannot- if they write "white" too many times in a post that it will weirdly not be shared- like people can't share their posts. You can't pass that on. So I also question though, not even just an age thing but social media is who they are who they're blocking and who they're silencing.
Also as part of the problem where even if- you're right people do need a source their sites. But I also think another level it's like there are things that are getting blocked there are things are getting put into motion and it's a weird kind of like break that's happening.
Dana: So two things about that abso-fucking-lutely a lot of like the movement about the Black Lives Matter movement- and even honestly even Palestinians has been blocked. I remember Bella? Hadid? I think? Who's half Palestinian, who posted something on her story about her father being from Palestine and it was taken down.
It was literally just a passport of his stuff and it said he was from Palestine and was taken down. And there were a couple of stories about that. So yeah I absolutely think it's regulated to kind of funnel that stuff out because there are people in power that are- to like to go back to what Aja was talking about, who gets to regulate it.
Well if it's people better severely biased, then we're fucked. You know like we can't successfully have that type of communication for movements.
Aja: But I think what's so toxic is the, I mean everyone's access to information. It's like people- in terms of, which we texted about journalistic integrity, like journalists will be up against the deadline of getting the news out before someone else in order for them to keep their jobs, for their paper to be successful, for their Internet whatever to be successful.
And I was watching, I can't remember what her name is, there's this lovely doctor who does like Instagram Stories about Covid stuff. She's, so she'll be like, "here are these five studies that I read about on this certain topic," and you know and she like breaks it down you know what those numbers mean and where they come from and if they're right and if you should listen to them she's great. I can find her info if anyone is interested. I think I sent her to all of y'all.
But basically she was talking about some Covid something...that all of these articles came out and said you know like "the percentage is this" and she was like, "No if you go back to the original source they are not even- these journalists aren't even fact checking their sources at all"- like what you were talking about Dana.
So it's like people are so much trying to stay ahead of the game that they're not checking- or I don't even know if they care if it's real or not at this point. It's like, "how can I get the clicks? How can I make the money? How can I get my job?" Which goes back to Tina's favorite point of fucking capitalism.
Tina: Yeah baybeee. I'll get you yet.
Lyonel: OK but perfect example to that exact same point- Aja, at the beginning the podcast you talked about a photo that you were like, "ehh do I take it down because I have 118 likes," and that is the perfect example of with social media, it's intent versus impact. There's actually no need to go back and look at sources because everything is like how can I make an impact right now, because it's all about being the biggest, loudest-
I feel like these new sort of these social circles don't even really care about like the truth of it they're just like is your post getting a lot of volume right now. So If you have a platform that like the more interactions you have the more popular you are, where's the incentive for truth other than like integrity? Which I'm saying with the little- but truthfully it should be about integrity.
But like the whole platform is` like, "how much interaction are you getting? good you're winning." So then what is the incentive to tell the truth other than to be a good person. Which I wish that's a thing but capitalism you know.
Dana: Fuck. Yeah it's interesting to think about like truth tellers and like how certain artists or truth tellers were not hailed or not listened to in their time. And then after the fact they were icons. It makes me think about that and like how it doesn't matter how many likes you get. Right? Like your- the quality of who you are, if you know it's true, that's the goal that like I want everyone to get through is like- who gives a flying fuck, you know? And I'm like it's just a game that everyone's playing, but like if you know who you are and you know the truth to the core you- then fuck the likes. That's just me.
Lyonel: But let's be real- let's be real for a second. A country that is built off of lying about the integrity of how they got here is one hundred percent gonna create a social network that has nothing to do with fucking truth and everything to do with impact and popularity.
Dana: Truth. Preach.
Lyonel: It's literally like social media and everything else is a byproduct of legitimately the foundation of America.
Dana: Yeah
Lyonel: Truly.
Tina: Dang.
Dana: You know that head exploding emoji? Picture that right now for me.
Tina: Yep. Picture the vomit one for me because I hate it here in this country.
Lyonel: Is there is their version of not having regulation that is successful? Did that make sense because I can reframe it.
Tina: Mmhm.
Aja: Yeah.
Lyonel: Ok I open that up to everyone: is there a version of not having regulation?
Aja: If it weren't about getting the news out first, because of our capitalistic society, if there was not a race to get the most people to listen to you, and we could actually trust the news sources to give us news that is well cited and researched. I think maybe.
Lyonel: Does posting a video count as something that needs to be regulated? For example, if there are regulations, could George Floyd's video have been posted without being vetted to make sure that the cop was 100 percent actually doing everything he was supposed to do correctly. Like is being able to post that video based on regulations or not regulations, I guess is my question. Like using actual footage as evidence- is that something that should be regulated or not? Because if so-
Aja: Specifically for social media?
Lyonel: Yeah. Yeah in social media. Think about like how we've been talking like posting that on these platforms on Instagram videos or Twitter like Snap and Twitter videos and like... if there's regulation but videos like those be seen or shown?
Tina: I think the question for me is like not like, "what was the content of the video," but "was the video doctored?"
So like the event happened, and whether the event was legal or not- or whether like what you're documenting was, yeah legal or not, it happened so I think as long as the content wasn't doctored to tell a specific story that is not true- I feel like, I mean in a dream world, yes, but like... I mean there are always exceptions, you know.
Lyonel: Because "doctored" just means like changing up the video, editing it essentially, correct? But if somebody posts an article they're not doctoring information, they just are posting incorrect information they haven't looked up- moving specifics aside, it's just the idea of like, how can you regulate sources as being like legit, if you have to vet it, vet a video- can you vet a video?
Because I'm being specific on the idea of like, if you regulate- that's what's hard I think about regulating, because...
Aja: Yeah.
Lyonel: ...regulating means that there is a way at which everything has to funnel so it is fairly and correctly going through. But sometimes, if there isn't a regulation, certain groups can be like, "No see I got to post this because you didn't mute me yet." And so I think there is an opposite side to it that is such an interesting push and pull. Over regulation.
Tina: Yeah.
Dana: Because we're still people right. We're still humans and they're still humans regulating these platforms-
Tina: With biases.
Lyonel: With biases.
Dana: With biases. Yeah. Do you think that you should be able to lie on social media?
Aja: I mean like, I wish it I wish it wasn't a question of should or shouldn't, I wish it was a question of like, "oh no, I don't lie- like I prefer to be honest to share the truth and we learn from each other and together..." I don't know...
Dana: Because it doesn't stop with the news. It's like face tuning. It's photoshop.
Aja: It's everything.
Dana: It's a lot of lying.
Lyonel: I'm laughing because that's such a 2020 question to ask.
Dana: Right?
Lyonel: The base of that whole question is truly it puts me in trauma, I have to bring it up in therapy on Wednesday. Because it's..."should you be able to lie" and it's like, NO. Yes. ...Except my headshots got retouched. Except...I have to use a ring that when I do an audition. Except...there's all these exceptions and like, what are those exceptions and it's ultimately-
I think you're landing on keeping up with the status quo. And social media is like keeping people up to the status quo of situations, even if that's not the truth. And again fucking capitalism! Everything is about- Aja, talk about....you know it's-yeah.
Aja: I..it...I..it...it's just I feel like... I can't...I got...
OK. I got- what was I doing the other night? Oh I was researching more about voting in California and we had like 12 or 13 propositions we were voting on. It was a lot, but just the scope- anytime I start digging into that stuff, the scope of how deep and big and scary our government is, and how intertwined it is with things that it shouldn't be intertwined with.
And like how the government, regardless of what party they are affiliated with, is manipulating information to make people follow them so that the people who are in power can hold onto that power and not let anyone else have it- instead of our government being about: here all the facts, here are all the things you want to know, here are the truths. Let's decide as a country together what the best way to move forward is.
It's not about that, a lot of people are making it seem like it's about that, but it's not about that. It's about staying in power. And I think that is the thing that I can't, I can't, I don't know even- even the people who I'm trusting to do the right thing, I don't know what their true intentions are, I don't know what they're going to- I don't know, whoever wins if they're actually going to do the things that they said they're going to do.
Regardless of whether or not you believe Trump is a good president, or you think Biden is gonna be a fantastic president, regardless of what you believe, we can't actually trust that the things that we need to happen are going to happen because not only is it about the individual candidate that may or may not get the office, it's about all of the people that are working with them, and their own personal agendas. Like we were talking about the last episode with you know, you become a politician to make change for your own beliefs, and the beliefs of people around you.
And I just feel like we're in this cyclone of misinformation, and fear mongering, and hiding the truth, and making up different truths, and social media, and journalism, and pitting each other against each other- like for, you know, my family having horrible conversations with my dads about you know, like why they don't believe that the things that I'm saying are real when I have experienced them in my true life and they say, "I don't see you as a person of color" and then it's like.... it trickles down so heavily.
And sometimes I feel like it's so easy for me to forget that that is happening all the time that like I'm seeing a very small window of you know, what's happening around me at any given moment. And so my decisions are based on the things that I see around me, and the things that I choose to engage with, and the things that I choose to research.
And it just...this isn't answering any question. It's just fucked.
Tina: It's so good though.
Aja: It's just fucked.
Lyonel: I think it is answering a question though, because you're speaking on the idea of-
Aja: I'm sweaty.
(laughing)
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Timestamp: 40:16
Lyonel: Like you're talking on the very fact as to why social media is not a legitimate source to get information from-
Aja: Right.
Lyonel: because of the structure that it has to compete against in order to stay relative.
Aja: Mm hmm.
Tina: It's also so compounded, at least for me, like, by the fact that we're in a pandemic. Like I don't have access to people, I don't have access, like we all talk to each other but we're divided by screens were divided by states we're, like, I don't have the access to human interaction that I'm used to and so I'm consuming even more from social media, from what I see online, and from what's available to me there because that's where I'm living my fucking life right now is like, on a screen. And it really is like the perfect storm of like all the bullshit that's been happening in social media and then also like cutting us off-- It's like we’re, like, hostages. I feel like I'm a hostage. Like we have this one way of consuming information, we've been cut off from like life as we know it.
And it's all like culminating in this, like, feeling of like not really being able to to tell or know fully what is true, because like you were saying like the powers that be are not invested in doing what's best for the people or doing what's best for the country or giving us the information that will serve us most it's about what tells the narrative they want to tell. Like the least they could fucking do is give us the information even when it's not readily accessible to us. But that doesn't help them.
Dana: It feels like we have lost the art of critical thinking as well.
Aja: Ughhh.
Dana: It feels as if like with these new tools and with how easily available everything is, it feels like that part of our brain, I feel like it's slowly disappearing.
Like all of this stuff about, you know, people if you're believing the lies if you're believing the conspiracy theories and believing all of this stuff it just feels like to me that our-- the way that we're supposed to critically think about things is just lost. It's like a lost art that we have to rediscover, do you know what I mean?
Lyonel: There's no way, also there's no middle ground, like I'm thinking back to this article you sent us and it's basically-- episode-- reading it again reveals the tension between fighting misinformation and protecting free speech, but critical thinking is, right, the idea that we can get information and decipher it ourselves and be like “No I call bullshit, no I say yes to that.”
Dana: Right.
Lyonel: But we're getting just so much information, that we’re actually just overwhelmed. And so putting regulations still isn't going to allow you to become critical thinking because like it's gonna be vetted anyways. But I think it's a conversation of having an overwhelming amount of information that you just don't know what to do except like recluse, and I almost see why people, I don't understand but I see, why people keep in their small bubbles because they're like well I just know that this works. I just know that this keeps me where I'm at.
So then when you're asking people to think outside the box or be like “That might not be correct” but it works for me.
Dana: Yeah.
Lyonel: And that's like OK cool. We're not having a conversation of the truth, we're having a conversation of comfort. And like now I can't get you to not talk about the truth of the situation because it's putting you in an uncomfortable situation cause you're overwhelmed.
Dana: Yeah yeah yeah I totally agree. And I think like, to speak to Tina’s point too, I think this even was before the pandemic. Like I feel like our--
Aja: Thanks internet!
Dana: Yeah thanks internet! The way that we speak to one another is so often online, and so it's as if we like forgot how to do it in person as often. Like there seems to be, it feels like there's a breakdown in how we used to communicate versus how we communicate now.
Tina: Mm hmm.
Dana: And I think, there is a Facebook V.P. he had this incredible speech about how Facebook has basically ruined our national dialogue-- international dialogue. Like it has ruined how we used to be able to speak to one another.
Lyonel: It's also that thing where, internet has fucked up conversations you know, like we send emails, like so many of our conversations are so fake. Or like text messaging like yes we're authentic but are we? Like how many times have we hit delete or erased a message, that if I say it to your face I can’t erase it, I have to justify it or apologize for it.
But so much of our daily interactions are literally text messages, are literally emails so they’re curated information, they're the vetted version of what I want you to hear. Like we're practicing so many edits throughout the day or practicing so many like “I'm going to put this in this like photo-regulated box to say it like this because I want to appear like this, I have more impact by this message by doing this.”
So it's, we have become a product of also the same vetting that we want to have like placed on us but not placed on us.
Aja: Yeah
Tina: I mean I think to what you said earlier Dana about like us losing the ability to think critically, I think like yes in a way, but I also think like the the skill of critical thinking itself is evolving, because I see, like you know, my my Gen Z cousins, I see like Gen Z folks that I know who like have a completely different way of engaging with material because they haven't grown up in a world where they assume that they can trust news sources, where they assume that they can trust everything they read.
Aja: Oof. Wow.
Tina: I feel like we were brought up to believe that we should be able to trust it.
Aja/Dana: Yeah
Tina: And certainly generations before us too. But like I feel like for me personally, like my generation, and I'm a Millennial, but like like we've had to learn that skill and I feel like Gen Z has like I never even believed that they can trust everything they see online because like it it was already so far gone by that point. So I feel like yes, the skill as we knew it of critical thinking, that exists in a world where like we even believed that we could like trust every source. Whereas now it feels like the skill of critical thinking is like what Aja was talking about earlier of like now I have to do my own fucking research and basically be my own fact checker, and engage with this on a level that assumes that it's got some kind of ulterior motive which is, I mean like the mental gymnastics that you have to do as a human to consume any sort of information, but also like it's exhausting and it's, it feels manipulative and like almost--
Lyonel: Because it is! Like the thing is like it is. It's like exactly what Aja said, when Aja literally was talking about how the party's power structure is set up to keep people in power without giving us information so we don't actually have it to hold them accountable with, except they know what's going on but they feed us this and make us think we have these choices, it's 100 percent manipulative all the way down the scale. And if anything, that's why Tik Tok was so fucking dope, because they got all those people to show up to Donald Trump's rally, thought he was gonna sell out, that's what you ain’t do: sell out! And so now he had all these empty seats, and so then they want to put regulations on Tik Tok.
Dana: Yeah.
Lyonel: But it's regulations for the idea that infuse, it came in contact with their power, versus like the actual act of it not being regulated allowed it to be a good use.
Dana: So social media: friend or foe? After all of this.
Aja: Oh god.
Tina: I think it has the potential to be a friend because it exists as a platform for people who were not necessarily given space to speak by traditional platforms, you know like like maybe people who couldn't afford to go to journalism school and like get credentials that way, or people who like don't have access to having their voices heard in traditional ways.
So I think in theory it's a great way to platform voices that don't, that are ignored by society at large but I think what it's turned into, because of capitalism, and I'm the proudest mama goose in the world that y'all started railing against capitalism without me even bringing it up--
(laughter)
Dana: We should call it the “C-word.”
(laughter)
Tina: I like that. We need to have like a buzzer, like a “PEW PEW PEW PEWWW”
(laughter, air horn noises, and other silly sounds)
Tina: Um, but yeah I feel like I like what it's turned into is I think beyond our, the people’s control, and has been used in a way that has denied access to those voices anyway so.
Dana: Right.
Tina: Yeah potential friend but right now we're still on bad terms.
Aja: Yeah I agree. It could be a friend if it were being used to foster like actual conversations and say like “Here's what I'm seeing, what are you seeing, do we want to talk about it?” As it stands now, I think yes Tina I do think there's a lot of good that comes from social media but I think that in my personal experience there's been so much bad in terms of fostering positive, or not even positive but like useful conversations with people who are in opposition to what you think.
I think it has been a huge divider of people. But I do think that it has the potential to be good. A good friend, a good friend.
Dana: Good friend. I think it's a foe until it’s regulated. I'm only on Instagram. Fuck Facebook. Twitter overwhelms me. Maybe Tik Tok, I like dancing. But I personally feel like I think the cons outweigh the good. That's where I'm at right now.
Lyonel: I think it's a friend but I think the abuse of power makes it a foe. I think that it's 100 percent there to link us together. I think it's 100 percent there to bring things instant. I think it's why our culture has evolved the way it has.
There are spaces that I take up that I would have never taken up if it wasn't for the instant-ness of social media and what it does for cultures. I do think that the foe is just a byproduct of the abuse that is our entire structure.
Dana: Cause if you think about it, because it's an addiction as well which we didn't even touch on. But it's also that--
Aja: We didn't even get to Social Dilemma!
(laughter)
Dana: No. But I think that the element of the addiction stems from the capitalistic nature to make more money, that's all that it boils down to.
Tina: Yeah fuch capitalism PEW PEW PEWWW.
Dana: Fuck the C-word.
Tina: Cool, uh, action items? Who has action items? The election’s right on the horizon.
Dana: Oh my god.
Tina:So trying to focus primarily on that.
Dana: For me I'm just going to reiterate what we say on our Instagram. This week if you are in Texas, please make sure that if you're mailing in a ballot that your signature matches your records, because if it doesn't the courts just ruled that they can not accept your ballot and then not tell you. So that's some fuckery, and Texas is a huge huge state that they're trying to flip this election obviously.
So either vote in-person if you feel comfortable, because we’re still in a pandemic, or just triple make sure. And this signature thing actually is a big thing everywhere, your signature has to match your records. But Texas can not tell you and then your vote won't count, so.
Aja: Vote! Please for the love of Bob if you haven't voted yet. Vote.
And yeah like I said, I mean like just skim your contacts in your brain for people you know in key states and check in with them. Make sure they're voting, you know ask if they need any support or if they'd like any support with understanding anything or you know like, I feel like California is one place, it's very different than Michigan or even Texas at this point. So help each other take care of each other and vote!
Lyonel: Also take care of yourself. Like just super small, like vote. Please vote. But also do what you need to do for you. Whatever self care looks like, get off social media that day, get on social media that day, but just make sure whatever you're doing is feeling yourself, not just blowing the flames at you, because this election is going to cost a lot of people a lot of different feelings but yours are important. So just listen to whatever you need for you that day.
Dana: Yessss.
Tina: My action item is again, like last week, it’s around voter suppression, we're really in crunch time here. But check out Natives Vote. Native communities are often really heavily targeted by voter suppression laws and efforts, so Natives Vote is doing some really cool stuff to increase access and resources so that Indigenous folks are not as affected by voter suppression.
And then for those of you voting in Illinois I would just like to encourage folks to vote YES on the Fair Tax Amendment.
Dana: Yesssssss.
Tina: Please please please please vote yes and eat the rich.
Dana: Eat. The. Rich!
Aja: Also just last baby one: Check your sources before you share something. Just spend two minutes googling it, or less just google it.
Dana: And we mean stories, we mean posts, we mean literally anything that you see.
Aja: Misinformation is dangerous.
Dana: Just google it!
Aja: Yeah, just look.
Dana: Alright! Lyonel, wanna send us off with your--
Lyonel: Yeah! Hey everyone, thank y’all again for tuning in to We the People, where we like to keep it fresh, cool, and unfiltered. See you next week.
(music)
Dana: Oooo what's in your fridge Lyonel?
Lyonel: I have wine, white claw,
Tina: So much wine!
Lyonel: Oat milk, I have egg whites-
Dana: I love oat milk.
Lyonel: Oat milk, wine, and sparkling water.
Tina: Ooooo!
Dana: Delicious.
Lyonel: And a dash of salt.
(laughter)
Aja: Brought to you by Lyonel's refrigerator. Use code We the People to get 20 percent off of looking at the fridge.
Dana: Oat milk!
Tina: We make our own ads until we get sponsored.
(laughter)
Dana: I'd love to be sponsored by wine, that’s be great.
Lyonel: Yeahhhhhh.
Tina: I am sponsored by wine.
Dana: My body is sponsored by wine.
Tina: My life is sponsored by wine.