Join us as we go in-depth on our own identities as artists, the importance of representation in art, and the many forms that representation takes. Episode content warnings: gun violence, violence against trans folks, anxiety
Join us as we go in-depth on our own identities as artists, the importance of representation in art, and how we can build upon the many forms that representation takes.
Episode content warnings: gun violence, violence against trans folks, anxiety
Follow us on instagram @wethepeoplepresent
Resources and action items on our Linktree
Cover artwork by Be Boggs
Music by Malaventura
Full transcript available HERE
Lyonel: We're We the People
Tina: And we're recording from the occupied territory of the Odawa, Ojibwe, Potawatomi people,
Dana: Or what you probably know to be Chicago,
Aja: And the Chumash, Kizh, Tataviam people-
Lyonel: or Los Angeles.
Dana: Guess what. We're all on stolen land. Take a second to learn whose land you occupy
Tina: And take meaningful direct action to decolonize and restore these lands to their rightful stewards.
Aja: Action Items and resources can be found in the link tree on our Instagram @wethepeoplepresent
(music)
Lyonel: Hey, everybody, welcome to We the People!
(general merriment!)
Lyonel: I'm Lyonel.
Aja: I'm Aja.
Dana: I'm Dana.
Tina: I'm Tina.
Aja: I said it normal y'all. Did you hear me?
Dana: Yes.
Tina: I'm real proud of you.
Lyonel: You also think you have jaundice.
Aja: Yes.
Lyonel: (chanting) Corona, corona, corona, corona, ba duh duh duh corona corona
(laughing)
Aja: Moderna, Pfizer, Moderna, Pfizer.
Lyonel: But really-
Dana: That's what I think every morning. Is today the day?
Aja: Every morning I get on my knees and I say, Dear God, please bless Moderna and Pfizer.
(laughing)
Dana: It's like waiting for a callback for an audition.
Tina: Oh, my God.
Dana: Please call me. Please call me.
Aja: (singing) God I hope I get it.
Dana and Aja: (singing): I hope I GET it.
Lyonel: (singing) How many doses do I need ? HOW MANY DOSES DO I NEED?
(laughing)
Lyonel: You ever think about, you know, those people call you randomly and they're like, "hey, you won a trip for two to the Bahamas?" I want them to call and be like. "Hey, you won a slot for
Moderna!". And I'd be like-
Tina: How soon do you think like the scams are going to start? Like people are going to start
scamming with the vaccine. They probably already have.
Dana: Probably.
Lyonel: Oh, my God. Scam me. I want to be scammmed.
Aja: You can have my money if you really give me a vaccine.
Dana: Yeah. I'll give you my money if you actually give me your spot.
Aja: Yeah.
Lyonel: Yeah, I'll take someone- yeah. I'll pay some of my stimulus money for a spot.
Tina: All right, listeners, you heard it here first. Reach out to Lyonel on Instagram.
(laughing)
Dana: I'll give you part of my stimulus money.
Lyonel: He's giving out stimulus money for a shot, y'all.
Aja: I will give you six...whole dollars.
Lyonel: Well, how's everyone doing ? How was your week ? How was you all's week.
Aja: Long.
Tina: Yeah.
Aja: Yeah, it was a long week, BUT the inauguration happened.
Lyonel: Yes!
Tina: Sure did baybeeee!
Aja: Beep beeeeep we made it.
Dana: Did anyone feel so much relief when the end of the festivities were done?
Lyonel: And everyone was...
Aja: The ten million dollars worth of fireworks?
Dana: No, I just mean like-
Tina: No disasters?
Dana: I don't know about y'all but I was I was like holding my breath.
Lyonel: I think that that's a really valid point. And like scary that we had - but real. Like, we sat
there in anticipation that there might be a mass shooting or one of our new leaders might be assassinated. That's wild to think about.
Dana: It really is. We're at that point.
Tina: But also I was like sitting there watching the footage and I was like, y'all, people were sitting so close together. I know they were wearing masks and they were outside. But like that also made me anxious. I was like, you can't you got to move these chairs away from each other. Like, this is not - why is this happening ?
Aja: People were touching each other like kissing each other on the cheek through their mask.
Tina: Hugging.
Aja: I was just like...
Lyonel: Very true.
Aja: This is a bad example. This is as bad as what Trump does.
Dana: It was tough.
Lyonel: Garth Brooks. Yeah, he hugged everybody.
Aja: Garth Brooks hugged everyone. And he was wearing fucking jeans.
Lyonel: And no mask.
Aja: Jeans and no mask to the inauguration.
Lyonel: What privilege.
Dana: And he sounded like shit.
Aja: And he felt it. He felt it. Y'all he was so proud of himself.
Tina: I get we have to like, show the country we're like, you know, like we can still celebrate the
good things even during a hard time. But like, do we though ? Like, we can't put the big festivities on hold till like after the global pandemic is over ? I don't know. I said this last week, but like, I'm like I'm not about the pageantry or the mystique around the American, you know, like, that's not really my thing. So I'm like, do we have to have a party? Can we not just do this over Zoom and like get it done.
Aja: And if they we don't, maybe everyone there was required to quarantine and get a test, like maybe they were all safe, but like-.
Tina: A lot of them are vaccinated, to be fair. But stil.
Aja: Tell people that. You know, like you're setting an example for the country and saying like 'we get to do this party anyway' while we all want it. But like, can you please show some responsibility in that ? And that includes more than masks when people are sitting right next to each other and touching each other. Did you see the meme or side by side photo of. Oh, my gosh, what...was like Cheetah Girls or something ?
Lyonel: Yes, with all four of the women out four, yeah.
Aja: I was like, nice.
Tina: There was one with Jonas Brothers, too.
Aja: Oh, really?
Tina: Where they're all wearing the same colors.
Aja: Oh, my gosh.
Tina: Like everyone's coats.
Aja: I mean, the ladies showed up with outfits.
Tina: Yeah. Truly all of the coats on display.
Aja: Every coat. Beautiful.
Tina: So speaking of we on the day, I remember we were like texting about like all the outfits
that we wanted. So for our Round-Robin fun little thing, create an outfit out of the outfits at the inauguration that you would wear to, I don't know, whatever, just what outfit do you want? .
Aja: In my home because it's covid.
Tina: Yeah, that you would wear it to stay home because...safety.
Aja: JLo's pants.
Lyonel: JLo's all white pants.
Aja: JLo's pants. And Kamala's jacket, Gaga's bird and her hair thing.
Tina: Yes.
Aja: And Garth Brooks's confidence.
(laughing)
Lyonel: Garth Brooks's walk. Yeah. Totally.
Aja: His his privilege. I'll take that. Dana!
Dana: I'm looking at it right now. Michelle's outfit blew me out of the water.
Aja: Oh. Also JLo's glow. Sorry. Her pants and her glow.
Lyonel: Oh my God.
Dana: Her glow. Yes, yeah, yeah.
Lyonel: (whispering) Garth Brooks's confidence. That's so good.
Dana: Like my joke answer is that I would just walk around naked with the Gaga bird.
Aja: Yesss that bird.
Lyonel: Oh that's good. That's good.
Aja: That silhouette was so good on her though.
Tina: I know.
Dana: It was, it looked really cool. She sounded really good too.
Aja: Yeah.
Dana: Which is not easy in the cold unless...
Tina: And she did it live like a lot of people don't do that at the inauguration.
Aja: Yeah. Like JLo wasn't live.
Dana: No. I guess I would say I mean, I really love Michelle's whole outfit, but like Michelle's coat, pants. Maybe JLo's was top-
Tina: Oooh that ruffly shirt, I love that shirt.
Aja: Ooooh yes. I can't do ruffles because of my big tatas. They make me look bulky.
Dana: I do- I got big tatas, too, so that might be a problem. And then...
Tina: I'll take the shirt then. .
Dana: And Bernie's mittens.
(laughing)
Lyonel: Bernie's mittens!
Aja: (chanting) MITTENS. MITTENS. MITTENS.
Dana: Because I wanna support and that teacher that gave it to him. Tina.
Tina: I mean definitely Amanda Gorman's coat, that yellow coat.
Aja: Oh. So beautiful. .
Tina: I love it so much. And that's like my favorite color. So, I mean, there are so many good coats. Maybe I just layer a bunch of coats on top of each other.
(laughing)
Aja: Everyone's coat.
Tina: Just everyone's coat just- I'm always cold all the time anyway.
Dana: No pants.
Aja: No pants.
Tina: Just coats.
Lyonel: No pants!
Aja: Garth Brooks jeans and every coat.
Tina: That is my final answer.
Aja: Or you could just do constant costume changes.
Tina: Or like patchwork of all of them. No, that would look horrible. Like a low rent production of
Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat.
Aja: (singing) we love his coat of many colors.
Lyonel: Alright. I would do Michelle Obama's jumpsuit, like just the jumpsuit. Amanda Gorman's yellow coat on top.
Aja: Mm hmm.
Lyonel: Amanda Gorman's headband, but in the same color as Michelle Obama's jumpsuit.
Tina: Ooooooo.
Lyonel: I would do Lady Gaga's bird on my jumpsuit.
Aja: Yeah.
Lyonel: I would do JLo's glow.
Aja: Yep.
Lyonel: I would have a white ruffled tie that would come down and just to play with color. And because I love that bitch I would do Jills face mask the turquoise blue with the matching gloves because I love Jill Biden.
Tina: I love Dr. Biden. And I would have Kamala Harris's....job because she's the boss. That's it.
Dana: Her job.
Lyonel: And I would not hug Garth Brooks.
Dana: Oh, no, no, no, no, no, get away from me. Do you know her earrings ? Amanda Gorman's earrings were a tribute to I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings.
Aja: Oh, I didn't know.
Tina: So good.
Lyonel: This feels like I have a really a really good point to make. And I think the segues us into our conversation, our representation and identity.
Aja: Yeah.
Lyonle: Because I think that in that specifically, these are really two awesome moments to think
about: Lady Lady Gaga represents a performer of all types, but she also leads with her individual, like being an individual, her voice. She's very confident about her singing. Right. Like there's a part of her that's like I am a singer first. And so I love that she sang live. But I also look at like JLo is a performer, like that is what she does. She's been a performer for years. She got into the game by dancing. She used to be a fly girl-
Dana: Fly girl!
Lyonel: She used to be a FLY GIRL on (sings) In Living Color. And I appreciate that. For whatever reason, she felt strongest by recording. I think that, A, it's important for her to represent that she's a presenter. I think it was dope of having - take the worry out of anything. I feel like that made her performance the strongest. And I actually love that she did that. It was not about what do I sound like, but it was like, what am I saying ? And I love that she mixed together her her nationality.
She mixed in her flavor with this patriotic-ness to be like, this is the America for everyone. I love that what they did and that they both didn't do live or did live.
Aja: Yeah. I mean, what would you do ? Would you do live or would you pre-record? I think I'd pre-record. I'd like to think I could do live.
Lyonel: To answer your question, if I were singing, I would pre-record. If I were performing, I'd want to perform something live. Like I wouldn't want to do a film version of it because I trust my instincts when I'm worried or when I get highly anxious from that. Like I identify myself as an actor first. So in crisis, if my anxiety reeled, I would trust that my instincts would kick in. If I had to sing even though I have trained to singing, I feel like I would choke. Or I'd be so worried about choking that I would have wished I was pre-recorded personally. How about you, what do y'all think?
Dana: I think I'd do live. I think I'd do live for both. But that's that's just me personally. If I had to play an instrument. No, yeah. Because it's so cold. I wouldn't have- unless it was a drum.
(laughing)
Dana: But every other instrument would cause me like too much anxiety.
Aja: (makes drum sounds, singing) Oh, say can you seeeee.
(everyone does drum sounds)
Dana: I think that would be dope like if I had a looper up there it would be great. 20 minute performance at the inauguration. But yeah, I think for me personally I think anxiety with performance is actually a helpful thing as opposed to something that hinders me. I think it helps me.
Aja: That's so great.
Dana: Which is weird but yeah it's just helpful.
Aja: It shuts me doooown. Blackout, hands fall asleep.
Dana: In every other and every other aspect of my life my anxiety makes things worse, but when I'm performing it actually makes it better.
Lyonel: And it doesn't matter what kind of performance you're doing, whether you're dancing or whether you're singing, whether you're acting.
Dana: No, the nerves and the anxiety for me, they go hand in hand and they actually they they just amplify everything for me.
Lyonel: Congrats, everyone. We have discovered the vaccine for covid. It is Dana. because that's a superhero fucking power. Like literally to be able to channel your anxiety like that is super hero. Like I can't do it for all three.
Aja: I learned something about myself or just relearned or discovered or whatever. So people were talking about their most embarrassing stories. There's a point, I promise. And one of mine is that when I was in first or second grade, I made honor choir in our area, like in our tri city area-
Dana: Congrats!
(laughing)
Aja: Thanks, thank you. I'm still very proud. And for Christmas for the Christmas concert I auditioned for a solo and the director after my audition came out to talk to my mom was like, 'Your child is very talented.' And I got the last solo of the show and everyone was like, 'oh my God, that's a big deal. They always put the best person last.' And I bombed so hard, like-.
Dana: Awwwwww.
Aja: I sang I'll be home for Christmas. And all of the low notes were off. Like every time I got down to the low note, I just couldn't figure it out. And I cried so much. I was like, 'Mom, I messed up so many notes.' And she was like, 'I'm really proud that you know that, though, because you're like eight.' And and I think to be honest, I think that has been a root of my anxiety and performing my entire life.
Dana: Aw.
Aja: And I only realized it recently. Like, I get there and I'm like, I mean, what if I just, like, sing all the wrong notes and then I make a fool of myself? So that's why at the inauguration, with that kind of pressure, I would be like, I'm just going to even though I see myself as a singer first. I would still be, too nervous.
Lyonel: Yeah.
Tina: Yeah.
Dana: Yeah.
Lyonel: My anxiety has gotten worse the older I've gotten, and I think it's because I like the other side of performing or the other side of just like living is you become aware like there's more lenses the more you become an adult.
Like, for example, like as a black man, I like- there are so many lenses that I think about even more as like an adult black man than I did as a child where I'm like cool, are those people watching me? are those people not watching me? Are those people figuring out what I'm doing? are they not ? Am I triggering ? Do I look safe ? Am I safe right now ? Is this a safe situation? that I carry over into my performance like little bits that I use to survive with that now I actually it's harder for me to turn my anxiety off as opposed to when I was younger.
I was so free. I was the most outspoken kid and like outgoing because I didn't have the same worries. And so I also listening to you say that I think I'm the flip like the older I've gotten the more I've been like Lyonel, stop it. Stop it. Get out your way.
Dana: What about you Tina?
Aja: Yeah, Teens, what about you?
Tina: Oh, I would- y'all have heard me sing. I would pre-record.
Dana: You've got a lovely voice!
Aja: You've got a great voice!
Tina: Yeah. But like I like unlike Dana like for me I actually am with you on the like I- nerve's helped me a lot as an actor. I'm definitely an actor first. So like, like nerves are good for me as an actor, but like they affect my body in like very physical and bad ways that like it like causes my support to like vanish.
Lyonel: Yeah.
Tina: Breath support and vocal support. So like I- it's not as bad in performance, but like in auditions I am not a good singer, it's like real bad. So I, I would definitely pre-record because I don't trust myself to do a good job of singing, knowing what my anxiety does to my physical body. So yeah, I would 100 percent pre-record.
Dana: Lyonel your story makes me think about every time I fly on a plane before all of this happened, now I have new anxiety about it - but like as I've gotten older- as a kid, I was never scared. Right. And then as I've gotten older. I'm more and more scared of-
Aja: Oh my God, Iike this is how I die.
Dana: Yeah. Every single fucking time.
Aja: This plane is going to fall out of the sky.
Dana: It's wild.
Lyonel: Yeah.
Dana: Like it's like the more that you live, the more than you realize. Oh, oh. All of these things can happen.
Lyonel: Correct. That's a risk. That's a risk.
Tina: The more you know, it's almost like, you know, it's like-
Aja: (sings) the mooore you knoooow...you're gonna die.
(laughing)
Aja: I'm sorry, Dana! Dana was drinking. I made Dana laugh while she was drinking, I'm sorry.
(laughing)
Lyonel: I like love roller coasters and I want to bungee jump. But like the oh, I'm like, if I don't do that shit next year, a bitch ain't doing it. Because-.
Dana: Yeah, you gotta do it now.
Lyonel: Man. The more I think about I'm like, how high are we jumping ? And I like, really look down. I'm like, oh, that's far. And what's going to catch me ? Uh uh I got shit to do.
Dana: This teeny rope?
Aja: This stretchy cord?
Dana: I, I jumped out of a plane at twenty one because I knew that I wasn't going to- like I just knew.
Tina: Well it's also like you're, I mean you're everything's downhill after a certain point, like my body's only going to hurt more and more from the repercussions of something...
(laughing)
Dana: Yeah.
Lyonel: Correct!
Aja: Oh my god.
Lyonel: That! That's why I can't jump out of anything thing.
Dana: Everything hurts.
(laughing)
Lyonel: I can't- I'll stand about a bed and roll my ankle. I can't land from jumping off of a plane.
(laughing)
Lyonel: Parachute or not, I literally can't get up and not like (makes cracking noise) like no, I'm out.
Aja: I was I was jumping the other day and my foot was like (makes a cracking noise) and I was like, I got to stop.
Tina: Yep. Every day when I stand up, when I wake up like the first time I stand up every day, like- just my hips downward, like all cracking every joint from my hips on down to my toes.
Dana: Yeah. Everything cracks in the morning.
Aja: That sounds like a good country song.
Dana: (sings) My hips? cracking.
(laughing)
Aja: (sings) My knees? cracking. My ankles? cracking.
(laughing)
Lyonel: (sings) And you're going to diiiee!
(laughing)
Aja: Oh my goodness. Ok.
Dana: (sings) And you're gonna diiiiee!
Aja: (sings) and you're gonna diiiiee!
(laughing)
Aja: We are so far off topic.
Dana: I know I know I know...we were gonna talk about identity.
Tina: I know!
(laughing)
Lyonel: OK. But I think it was like representation. How do you represent yourself? So like I think it is still interesting, you know, going to the point of like Dana, the way you represent yourself when you perform. Tina. Aja. like the way we represent ourselves when we perform.
And leading with that, when you show people who you are like, leading with, again, I think JLo was a really great example of like representing her culture, which she did the Super Bowl. Right. Like, there's such a super power that her and Shakira have to have and step into when they do a lot of these performances that I think like resonate and they offer a conversation piece for things.
Dana: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the times art well, art attempts to push the boundaries of representation, although I don't think it does a consistently good job at it and.
Tina: It has the capacity to.
Dana: yeah has the capacity to. And I think art, music, theater, you know, they think they they have the awareness of knowing that culture pushes progress forward in ways that others kind of drag their feet. So I think that putting wealth into representation and putting representation in the front lines, fully well, knowing that it pushes progress forward in culture and if culture is moving forward, then everything else has to go with it. I think that's like the hope a lot of the time.
Tina: Yeah.
Aja: Yeah.
Tina: And I think, like, it's not just like progress, but it's also empathy. Like the more you're exposed to something, the more inclined you are to understand that thing. And so I think like especially in art, because like it's a ubiquitous thing. Everyone consumes art. Even if you don't think you have a connection to a lot of art, like if you watch TV, if you listen to music, if you hum, like you have a connection to art.
So if you're seeing experiences and people that are different from you and what you know and understand in the world around you like that can only serve to broaden your perspective of of the way the world works in the way people are and behave, which I think promotes having empathy for those things, which I think is another. It's like an important, effective representation.
And I think also like the push behind a lot of movements for representation in the arts right now is like a broadening of the stories that we tell so that we can reach more people and so that people don't bother us.
Dana: Yeah, yeah, that's absolutely true. Yeah. I'm- for the listeners, I'm part Palestinian, part Jordanian. And I think a lot of the times there's a political force that doesn't want to show Palestinians as humans. That doesn't want to open the door for empathy for Palestinians because then they can control the narrative that we're a certain type of people, if that makes sense. Which I think is why I kind of felt the push to have a story based, loosely based off of my own life to show that we're humans, to show that, you know, like to open the empathy door essentially.
Lyonel: Just because you feel like there's not any narrative or there's no there's nothing like you, for you, or about you that's out there right now, essentially ?
Dana: Yeah, that's precisely it. I mean, there's so many limited stories about Palestinians that are on like the bigger market in the first place, let alone documentary, even like news stories that accurately or objectively tell what's happening over there. So.
Tina: And it's also like- like that's makes me think of like it's not just about, you know, representation and having diverse voices in a room and represented on screen or on stage or in music like that is important, is just like the presence of those bodies in a space that is visible for people.
But that's not it. I think people a lot of times are like, oh, we have a diverse cast and that's great. But like that's only half of the story. You have to be conscious in how you represent people because like, yeah, you might have a lot of like- I'm Indian, so like you might have a lot of Indian people in your thing, but if you're casting them all as the villain, that's that's not representation. That's not helpful. That's like I think more actually more harmful than it is helpful.
It's not just having the bodies. It's about how you let those bodies inhabit the space and who you tell your audience those people are.
Lyonel: Not to get to like to like spiritual. But I also think on the flip side of this, it's like, what are you actively representing as like a thing that pops up in my head a lot because I write and like in writing characters right now and thinking about characters, for example, like female characters, I think it's really important to like not-
And of course, you all like check me on this, but it's like I think it's important to not always write female characters that all of their scenes deal with their opinion of man like all of their scenes dealt with, like, are you getting the man ? Are you winning the man ? And if you're with another woman, like, did I beat you ? Did you beat me ? And like, what do they think about it ? But instead, building scenes for, like, that community, women, that are just women getting to coexist in space with the point of view. So I'm thinking like, what are you active representing ?
I think a lot of times getting down to like having a point of view is really important that I think sometimes I forget, like a lot of my representation is in not wanting to be forgotten, not wanting to be dismissed, not wanting to be left out ,right. Like being in a diverse group of things. But there is a nature which like you don't have to serve as a diverse lane for something like you actually can, just like - like we're doing right now. Like I am inspired by art.
I'm inspired by seeing theatre. I'm inspired by television. So therefore I'm actively representing a black body in space that wants to create art by what inspires me. Like I like I'm trying to challenge representation from being a sense of what is what it's like when you are like being rebellion, like representation, being a rebellion from the norm, as opposed to representation, being a place at which my my lens and my point of view has space to exist.
Dana: So you're challenging what we think, the definition of representation.
Lyonel. Yeah.
Dana: Like because we're so we're so black and white about it, about the definition. Like we think representation just means like having these certain people on screen or behind the lens.
But you're saying that it should be more than that, which I totally agree with, because if we're only thinking about each other as like like one thing we're not actively trying to represent or like open the empathy door or like tell stories accurately, because we're we're all so much more than just like one thing.
Lyonel: Yeah. I mean. Right. Because it's like Tina said, empathy, which I have such a huge problem with the movie...um. Oh my God. I try to block it out where he plays a trans character, but he's not trans. Eddie Redmayne, what's the movie ? It's fucking terrible.
Tina: Oh, the Danish girl.
Lyonel: Guh. yes, that one. But it's like we aren't learning empathy about the trans community by seeing it through a straight man's lens. Like that's such a misrepresentation of a community that is not represented very well.
So I do think, like, we do need to see those characters more often on our screen in order to develop the empathy of what happens in that community. But I think also, like represent them by let them actively represent themselves, let them be the people that tell the narrative, not not taking it from them and telling it, telling it not as them, I think like, yeah, representation is like important in that manner, too.
Tina: Yeah. Have you all seen the documentary disclosure. On Netflix.
Dana: Yeah. Very good.
Aja: No.
Lyonel: I didn't finish it, but I need to watch it.
Tina: It's specifically about trans representation in in media. And it's super, it's really good. It's one of my favorite movies of the last year, but it's just it's about that. Exactly. It's about like how the idea that like having having CIS men play trans women on screen actually perpetuates real life violence against trans women and perpetuates the notion that trans women are men in dresses, which is not the case.
Lyonel: Yes!
Tina: But that's like that's the power of art, is it changes the way people think and perceive of people that they may not have access to. So, I mean, yeah, it's like what I said before, like it does more harm than good. But also, like you said, Lyonel, like, we have to let people tell their own stories. We can't just represent them on screen. We got to represent people like in the writers room, on the crew, in the director's chair, like there's so many facets of representation in in the artistic creation process that like I think people kind of get stuck in the like, well, we have these actors, so, like the optics of it are great and it makes us look good and look like we're trying, but we're not actually willing to put the work in.
Also, like, it bugs me that like we see diverse, "stories" and like stories about that that claim to like promote positive representation that still include like a whole ton of white cis straight people. Like it feels like in a story about that's like marketed as something that's like great for representation of specific communities.
It's still told through the lens of people in kind of the dominant position or like people who do have a lot of privilege because like it's hard for peopl- for some reason, it's hard for people to, like, conceive of a story about a marginalized group of people that doesn't include white people.
Dana: (laughing)Yeah.
Tina: Drives me fucking insane.
Dana: Yeah. Even like in a city like New York City, it's like if you walk down the street in New York, it's like you're kind of hard pressed to find a lot of white people in one area unless you're in a specific part of the city.
But that's always wild to me that like something like New York City. And they're like, look at all these white people. It's like, where- where are you in New York that all of these white people are in the same room.
Tina: I'm like, can can we have an interracial couple where one of the people is a white person ?
Dana: Yeah. that part.
Tina: Can we can we show that?
Lyonel: Mmhm.
Tina: That's, you know, like people patting themselves on the back for like, well we included an interracial couple or like a queer couple. It's like, yeah, but there's always a white person. It doesn't, there-
Lyonel: Yeah.
Tina: You can have interracial couple couples where none of them are white people. That's a thing.
Dana: What? No.
Lyonel: That's what I loved about, - haha how dare you! That's what I love about Like crazy rich Asians because it actively represented a culture of people as every identity in that movie, like it had nothing to do with like, oh, this character who's going to be the antagonist, we're going to make them Asian. Or we'll make the engenue Asian, but everyone else can be white or everyone else can be black.
It's like the whole movie they just got to actively represent themselves in a movie that had nothing to do- I mean, yes, Asians is in the title, but I think that that was like a playful humor on the on the term versus like a need to like, let's make an Asian movie. You get I'm saying like I think there was a difference and letting the whole cast be characters that just were people who existed and I think like that is representation that is not competitive or it's not serving a tokenism style of anything, right? In a canon just as a movie with an Asian culture and background on it, that's it. I think that is that is where representation should get to.
Tina: Yeah, it makes me think about how, like, we get so few queer stories that don't involve suffering or coming out or pain or like the people not getting to be together in the end, or on Twitter awhile ago, there was like a whole thing about like let lesbians live in times where there's electricity in movies.
(laughing)
Tina: Like let us have lesbian movies set in a time where, like, there is modern technology and not just like a period drama about- I mean, like I love Portrait of a Lady on Fire it's one of my
favorite things I've ever seen in my life, but like, it's true.
Dana: It's so good.
Tina: Like we only get certain types of stories about marginalized folks. And it's like through a very certain lens.
Lyonel: That's funny.
Tina: We can't just like...be people.
Dana: Can we get electricity? lights that turn on?
Lyonel: Give them electricity. That's funny. Aja, how are you doing over there ?
Aja: I'm very hungry and having trouble focusing.
(laughing)
Aja: I haven't eaten today.
Dana: Oh, no.
Aja: Yeah. I mean, I've been keeping up but I just can't formulate complete thoughts. So here we are.
Lyonel: Give baby a biscuit.
Aja: Give me a biscuit.
Dana: Give it to me.
Aja: Yeah, I don't know. And I think the conversation just moving quickly. So every time I have a thought I'm like, yeah, we'll get to it later. I tried to keep a list, but it didn't work. Yeah, I don't know. But it's it's also like an interesting thing as like a mixed race, like half white person. My thoughts on all of these things are- not necessarily different, but like I'm coming at it from a different perspective, like or - I don't even know what I'm trying to say. I don't know. I think well it's like it's like. Yes, Crazy Rich Asian's was a good movie. It wasn't my favorite. I did like that it was all Asians.
But I didn't like the fact that they had to call out the title Crazy Rich Asians. Like I felt like there was a lot of work that went into it being accepted by a wide audience like, I don't know, I had I, I think that movie was a big success in a lot of ways. But I still, as an Asian woman, had problems with it. But that's the thing. Who gets to judge how much representation is enough and what stories are being told and what story like- I love being a character that is not based on Asian, I love nothing more than to just get to exist as a human who just happens to be Asian.
We don't have to talk about it. I don't talk about being Asian on the reg. Like, I'm not like waking up in the morning and being like, hey, Josh, I'm Asian. Want to know what it feels like to be Asian.
(laughing)
Aja: So, I mean, yes, I think that the diverse stories are so important. But for me, sometimes seeing a person of color in a role just existing as a person of color is enough. Like not always, but yeah, I don't know.
Tina: I feel that I feel like there is a big part of me that is like that to that like is like I just want to play a character that like wasn't written to look the way I look, but that just does look the way I look. And that lives in the world like a human. At the same time though, like because of what I know of the way the industry works, like I can be almost certain that when I do play a character like that, it was written by someone who was intending for that character to be default white because white is still seen as the default for like casting and for the way a lot of writers write.
So at the same time, I'm what I would really like is a happy marriage of the two, which is like a character who was written to be an Indian character or a Bolivian character or both, because that's what I am. But who the whole story isn't about them existing in that identity. Like I would love for, like a character who talks about race not at all to be named, you know, like Puja. And that's just the character's name. And we're going to cast an Indian person.
And it's nothing to do with the fact that they're Indian. Like, I just I wish we could get to a point where, like, we can have stories about people and not make it about their identity or how they're different from the norm in big quotes. But like also still celebrate the fact that, like that culture and existing as that kind of a person has probably had an effect on the way that they see the world and the way that they live their life.
Aja: Yeah.
Tina: And that's what I want for, like, my life to not just the roles I play, but like that's how I want to be seen as me, as Tina.
Aja: Do you think then that the progress that we made isn't enough ? Because I'm looking at it, you know, like from the beginning of cinema to what will outlive us. And I feel like I don't know, I feel like we are taking steps and maybe they aren't enough for people. But like in the grand scheme, we've taken huge steps forward. And even though, you know, Eddie Redmayne is not a trans woman like that is a story that no one would have ever seen necessarily unless they produced it.
So is there any are you saying there's no value in that story being told in mainstream media because it was played by cis white male?
Tina: I'm not saying that there's no value. I think there is value in the fact that we're telling stories like that. But I think how we tell those stories is equally, if not more important, because like I said before, like, that actually does cause harm. It also causes good.
So I'm not saying it's like bad that that exists, but I think I just think we need to focus more on the how as opposed to the fact that we're doing it.
Lyonel: And I think that- Aja that's a great question- but my my thoughts to that would be it's at the same level of progression as we did blackface. Like, yes, it's a great the story needs to be told. The story needs to be heard. But the lack of representation is at whose expense? Like that community's story is getting lifted, but at the expense that they aren't getting to tell it.
But it is a message- the same way that, like, you could put a black character back in arts at one time and put them in blackface and like the story was being told. But it was at the expense of like, what did they look like ? And some things were caricatures, right, where they were like put people in blackface and like that was like a gimmick and a joke. But there were tons of times in productions of Othello that were like done with legitimacy just as a white person, blackface. So I think that, like, as the canon goes on, it's important to include the trans story.
But then we'll we'll get to the part where we're like, oh, wow, that should be a story told by that community. But I think the bigger thing, to your point, Aja, is like there is no realm of like what's more representation or is that enough ? I think it's allowing complexity and representation. Like, I think it's the idea that I could be like Crazy Rich Asians should be a story that's told. But I'm not Asian, so I can't say that that's enough.
But you, as an Asian identifying person, get to be like, yeah, it is. And guess what? It's not that good of a story. And guess what the characters do need to be like this, this, this. And I do have a problem with the fact that, like, it's only a lane for me here. But I think that my job as someone, not Asian, is to create space for an Asian story to exist. And your job as someone who is Asian is to like challenge, that is not enough. I think that that is the switch of representation.
Aja: For sure, yeah. Yeah. I guess- and also, like I don't know if I think about the entertainment industry as a cis white man, like, I guess I still try to celebrate where movement is happening.
I'm not saying it's perfect, obviously, it's not perfect, but there are still a lot of problems and I have major beef with the industry. But this conversation is helping me frame it in terms of, again, like where we started and where we're going and the fact that we are able to have these conversations and that media and people are starting to understand that to a certain extent and casting notices and, you know, like what I'm seeing in casting and calls, like I do see characters on call sheets that are like she's Asian, but her story has nothing to do with being Asian.
But they call for that like that is happening. So it makes me glad to see that, like, these things are moving forward. They're not happening as much as we'd like. And we're still up against like a white patriarchal society and entertainment industry that, you know, we're all fighting against. But. It's not enough, but it's moving.
Lyonel: It's something, it's something. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Dana: It's hard to because I think every time a story is told from a group of people that haven't really been represented before, I and I feel this pressure, too, because I feel like identity has to be a big part of it, because it's like you're almost you're not- in some way there is an attempt to kind of educate your audience about who who we are. How we live our lives.
And so every time you tell a story about identity kind of opens that door wider and wider and wider until, like, the culture that you live in is familiar and empathetic towards your people. You're no longer being banned from the country. You're no longer viewed as a terrorist for your last name.
Lyonel: Yeah.
Dana: So when you get to that point, culturally, I think is when you can start start to think about just telling the story without a focus on identity and without a focus on representation. But I think you have to like, push this line. Like, I think about Ramy a lot. And I think about like Ramy was a fantastic- second season's incredible. But I think a lot about how, like, you kind of have to tell stories about how we grew up, about Arabs in general, before you can get to a point where you can just like be an Arab and not have to focus on that moment.
Tina: And also it's so important to have like a multitude of versions of these stories because like, you know, we're not a monolith. You know, like there's so much diversity within cultures and within like, you know, racial groups that like having one story about that, you know, that's supposed to represent, you know, like Dana like you're saying like the Arab experience. Like it's not going to represent everyone's experience because, like, we're not all the same. So.
Dana: Yeah.
Aja: Right.
Tina: We need a multitude of those stories to, like, even start kind of doing the work of like kind of destigmatizing or demystifying that experience for people. Because, like, I think people people do think that, like, well, one is enough. And then, like now I understand that thing because, like, I saw it one time, whereas, like, you know, there's so much that you don't see and so much within that experience that could be different from each other that that I think right now at this point, like the only stories that get told that allow for that wealth of experience and that diversity of experience are stories about, cis white people.
Dana: Yeah, that's totally. And because because I know so many of so many people that are like thinking about telling their story, but then they like look at the TV or movie and then they're like, oh, I can't tell it now because somebody else told a story that's quasi like mine. And I was just like, no, the more you need to tell more stories about this, like we all need to tell more stories about our lives or or the stories that you want to tell simply because of that.
Like we're not all- I'm not Ramy. Ramy isn't me. Like, I'm not going to tell the same story.
Tina: Can you all think of- you bringing up Ramy reminded me of like I'm just interested to know if y'all have any, like, examples of pieces of media or like things that you've seen recently or just at any point in your life that you think do a really good job of kind of like bridging all of these divides that we've been talking about or that you feel like get representation...right.
Lyonel: Hmmm.
Aja: What is right ?
Lyonel: I was going to say - .
Tina: Like right for you, like, you know what, whatever you think right is. what you think does a good job.
Aja: I don't know what that means for me then.
Tina: Yeah.
Lyonel: Because I don't know, because I don't I don't think their representation is a landing zone. Like, I don't think you can land at representation. I don't mean like I don't think there's I think
there's just like is what I'm creating having a funnel for someone to show who they are in full complexity versus what I can like, target them with.
And I think a show that's doing that, like I really like Euphoria. I think Euphoria was a really good show on like - but again, I think what I liked about Euphoria was that it was- we got to we got to have people of different nationalities are different backgrounds, which wasn't the casting call, but it was the normality. The idea that these people coexisted and the issues they dealt with were situational versus racial. Or identity wise, even though there were identities represented, like I love that the trans character in that show did not have to speak to being trans, I think is really dope and important. And I thought the same about Queen and Slim, like I am I saying the name right, Queen and Slim?
Dana: Yeah, I think so.
Lyonel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like in that same movie, like I love that it was just like a love story and it was like whether or not people loved or didn't love the acting of it. I just love that it was a love story that dealt with an issue that was going on like. So I guess that felt right. It didn't feel wrong. I didn't watch it and think like, oh, this is a trap. This is a box.
Dana: I think for me, Moonlight a couple years ago just I thought made a- I don't know. For me it was just the storytelling of it that I thought that was just beautiful. But it just so happened to be a story about a queer man that, like. I don't know - it really impacted me in a way, but I just love the story, so I guess I don't know I don't know like how in terms of conversation about representation or whatnot.
Lyonel: But the story is very representative. I definitely think, like as a black queer man myself, like you don't ever get to see empathy seen on television. You don't get to see black men be soft and be loving and embrace and hug each other. There is such a need to show black men in this dangerous light and in this light of something to fear. You know, that's why I don't watch Law and Order because of the way at which they set up different groups of people. Example of a show that I think is doing it wrong. Law and Order shows.
Aja: All of those shows.
Lyonel: All of those procedural shows honestly, throw it away.
Aja: Glorifying coersion.
Lyonel: Throw it away.
Dana: Awful.
Lyonel: Yeah, throw it away. Because-.
Aja: Normalizing coercion in general.
Lyonel: Correct. Yeah.
Dana: But yeah. Yeah. Lyonel, it was told in such a beautiful- like I don't think I'll ever get that scene out of my head where he's just in the water with.
Lyonel: Oh yeah.
Dana: Beautiful filmmaking. But there's some, it's just loving and like you're right, it's like a scene that isn't shown often and and it's like that type of representation of love.
Lyonel: Mm hmm.
Dana: Like, not even just, you know. Identity, but like just love, that's another form of representation that you just, like, don't see. How about you, Tina?
Tina: I know, I asked this question, but I did not have an answer in mind.
Aja: What was the question again
Tina: Is there a piece of media that you you feel like for you kind of encapsulates what you want from representation? But I mean, I think for me, the only thing I could think of right now and I don't know why exactly, I'm sure I'll work it out in real time right now is is Hustler's, which I saw with Dana.
Dana: Yeah. Dope.
Tina: Which I fucking loved that movie. And you know, we're back to JLo. Love her to-.
Lyonel: (sings) JLoooo.
Aja: It always comes back to JLo, let's be real.
Tina: Honestly, with me, it always comes back to JLo. But I just feel like it's a fun ass movie and it's like the cast is a diverse group of people and it's never about that. But it just it doesn't ignore that either. It just allows these people to be who they are. It tells it's also OK. I was thinking like as we were talking like it. And the third facet, I think, to add to what I said before is like, who are we telling the story for ?
And like, what lens are we telling the story for ? You know, like I feel like a lot of the times stories about especially, you know, in the case of Hustler, stories about exotic dancers are told for the consumption of... the straight CIS men.
Lyonel: The male gaze.
Tina: But this like this film is like so not even for that, like there were so many scenes where it just felt like people were dancing for themselves and not to be consumed by the people who generally, like, are seen as the target audience for this kind of stuff.
And I think the fact that it was directed and written by women is a big part of why that was so effective and why I didn't feel like gross about any of it or like any of it was exploitative or like. Yeah, I just I like I felt like it was for me, and I rarely feel that way, but also just like I just like that people just got to like like we got to see a bunch of women of color having fucking fun and enjoying themselves and like, not sad about stuff or not like being persecuted and like that was great and, you know, maybe getting away with some crime against gross dudes, which I'm all about.
So I feel like like, yeah, it's not perfect. And there's so much further we have to go. But like, that was one thing where I was like, yeah. Like I'm onboard for all of this.
Lyonel: Mm hmm. Aja, if you look if you look at the docket of the of art, like you saying at the beginning of time of cinema, to like how it's gone now and obviously it's not. And and what will live on after us, what it has to help or what is helping you, helping you to believe in the hope of that ? Like what pieces or what types of pieces are helping you? That have that perception where, like they are going for which I agree with, I agree that they are changing to what kind of is helping scope that, or what is on the table that makes you think that ? Or I feel that.
Aja: I don't know.
Lyonle: OK. Dope.
Aja: I mean, I think that there's a wider range of stories and the fact that there are so many places for people to tell their stories, I mean, like even like there are stories being told everywhere and it's not mainstream.
Like not a lot is happening mainstream or it's not happening fast enough. Or as fast as we would like, but I don't know. Things that came to mind, I mean, I kept thinking of movies that had people of color in stories that felt like they were told well, in the vein of what we're talking about. But then I was like, oh, well, I actually don't know because I'm still training myself to look for those things. So I don't know, like Widows came to mind that I liked some of the storytelling of Widows like that, the stories around each person were like, I don't know, I don't even remember any of the actor's names were like, but this the the escort, the sex worker like her story, it wasn't like, I don't feel like that story was exploitative of her or of sex workers.
There was like a story about her contribution where she just happened to be a sex worker and was doing this heist. Or like Michelle Rodriguez's character, like they owned a Quincenera store. But like it wasn't like all about them being Latinx. It was like, you know, they were like a bunch of little stories that came together. Was it told perfectly ? I don't know. I don't remember. It's been a long time. But that was a movie that came to mind that I was like, oh, these people of color got to exist and we got to see pieces of their well- and the sex worker wasn't a person of color, but she was European.
But like those stories all felt like they were told- they were part of the story, but they weren't like a part of their I don't know, and losing steam on that.
Dana: And I think that's like something that so many people miss in terms of representation about how it's opening a door for the next generation like it's a gift that we can work towards, because for me, I didn't see that as a kid. I never did, not on social media, because I didn't fucking have it. Not on TV, not on movies, nothing. So focusing on representation so that the next tiny little Arab girl grows up and seen all of it and just wants to write a story just for the sake of writing a story, that's the goal, right ? Like, that's that's that's the gift that we can give to the generations after us that I think a lot of people miss.
Like, they're like what's what's the counterargument is always like, well, why ? What's the you know, like, what's the point ? Blah blah blah blah blah. It's a gift that we can give.
Aja: Yeah, yeah. And I don't think that that's going to like politics changing or, you know, ridding itself of everything that it is right now. Like, that's not I don't foresee that happening in my lifetime. So like, yeah, I think you're totally right, Dana. It's like we're just making space.
Dana: Yeah.
Aja: ..for the people that come after us.
Dana: Sometimes I feel like people hold onto it so that they're like, well, if I didn't have it then people younger than me shouldn't have it. You know what I mean ? Like, it's it's like you should be giving these these generations after is like a gift. I mean, that can have.. We didn't have.
Aja: I'm not a spiri- I'm not a religious person. And like I think that our whole point of being here is to leave the world better than when we got here. And that that includes the arts and that includes politics. .
Dana: Yeah, for sure.
Tina: I mean, in art and politics, too, so like it's all at a certain point, it all becomes part of the same...
Dana: Yeah.
Tina: You know, what we see in art dictates what we think is possible in politics.
Dana: Yeah.
Tina: It allows us to kind of dream, dream the world that we want into existence. I think this makes me think about an action item that I have. Oh, yeah.
Lyonel: So to your question, which I think was dope or to your point, was like, you know, you would love to see it. I think for me, an action item would be seeing if there's something keeping me out of the room, like an action item, seeing what about my identity ? My representation, I feel keeps me out the room and then lean into that thing and funnel it with confidence. For example, I think of like Kamala Harris this week, like, again, I would love to get to a point where we saw TV shows and we didn't have to think about it.
But the thing is, that's just not realistic to like Aja's point in our lifetime.
Dana: We aren't there.
Lyonel: I don't I don't think so. Right. Because we're still announcing the first woman. We're still announcing the first black woman. We're still not seeing the first Asian woman. So I think an action item is just being like, is there something keeping me out of the room and then challenge that just by not confronting it, but being like, cool, there's space for me to keep chiseling at my own voice.
And like in terms of being an artist, terms of being a writer, in terms of being an actor like. Sitting into those stories and forcing them to the table, whatever my complexity I feel is personal, right? Like whatever I think in like my black queer boy fantasy needs to be talked about, but taking that as an action and so figuring out where to put your staple in a hole. Ooooh, good, that feel's so...
Tina: Hell yeah.
Dana: Tingly!
Lyonel: Okay!!
Aja: Was that an action item for us or for listeners or both?
Lyonel: Both.
Aja: And I would just tag on to that: If you are a cis white person, what space are you occupying that you could create space for other voices ?
Tina: How do you spend that privilege, baby ?
Aja: Yeah! I guess also if you are not currently watching things or looking for holes before you sit down to watch something, ask yourself to do that, to say like, is the representation here? Look up who the writers are, the directors are like, find out who is telling these stories and start voting with your dollars about what you want to see.
Lyonel: Well, until next time, we're We the People, where we like to keep it fresh, funky and always unfiltered. Til next time.
Aja, Tina, Dana: Byyyeee.
---
Aja: This is the musical episode everyone.
Lyonel: That was my first musical I ever did.
Aja: Really!
Tina: What!!
Aja: What'd you play?
Lyonel: I was the butler.
(silence)
Aja: Great!
Lyonel: No one knows...
Aja: I don't know that show well enough.
Dana: All of our faces!
Lyonel: None of you know that...
Aja: I literally only know Joseph. There's a narrator right?
Dana: Our mouths were open and we're just like nodding
Lyonel: Y'all waited for the punchline, but the joke was that was the punchline.
(laughing)
Lyonel: He had- his line... (sings) "Both ___ ___ service, the Pharoah ____ the king... ___ __ ____ doghouse for doing the thing...One was a baker, cook of his time...One was a butler, the Jeeves of his time.
(still singing) We don't think that we will ever see the..." That wasn't it.
(laughing)
Lyonel: And then it was... "There I was standing with Pharoah the king..." I forgot.
(laughing)
Lyonel: I'll remember.
Aja: We'll circle back, we'll circle back.