This week, join us in working through the complexities of holding people accountable for the harm they've caused while also encouraging growth and change, and who we ask to take on that labor. Episode content warnings: trump supporters & rhetoric
This week, join us in working through the complexities of holding people accountable for the harm they've caused while also encouraging growth and change, and who we ask to take on that labor.
Episode content warnings: trump supporters & rhetoric
Follow us on instagram @wethepeoplepresent
Resources and action items on our Linktree
Cover artwork by Be Boggs
Music by Malaventura
Full transcript available HERE
Lyonel: We're We the People
Tina: And we're recording from the occupied territory of the Odawa, Ojibwe, Potawatomi people,
Dana: Or what you probably know to be Chicago,
Aja: And the Chumash, Kizh, Tataviam people-
Lyonel: or Los Angeles.
Dana: Guess what. We're all on stolen land. Take a second to learn whose land you occupy
Tina: And take meaningful direct action to decolonize and restore these lands to their rightful stewards.
Aja: Action Items and resources can be found in the link tree on our Instagram @wethepeoplepresent
(music)
Dana: What's up everybody??
Tina & Lyonel: Heyyyyyyy!
(laughing)
Aja: Hell-oooooo
Dana: It's your 4 favorite frieeeends.
Lyonel: I'm Lyonel.
Dana: I am Dana.
Tina: I'm Tina.
Aja: I'm Aja.
Lyonel & Aja: (disjointed chanting) This is WE - THE - PEOPLLLLLEEE...present....
Dana: (sings) PRESEEENT
Aja: A Pord-cast.
Dana: A pord-cast.
Lyonel: Y'all we made it. We made it through-
Aja: (sings) LOOKS LIKE WE MADE IT!
(Tina giggles)
Lyonel: Oh my God. 2020 has been five years long. We fucking made it.
Aja: I'm 77.
Dana: Except next year I think we should all make a pact to just redo our birthdays.
Tina: Yes.
Dana: So we just stay the same age for two years.
Tina: Yeahyeahyeahyeahyeah
Lyonel: That's fair
Aja: Yeah yeah yeah.
Dana: Because this is bullshit.
Tina & Aja: Yeah.
Lyonel: Yeah. I celebrated alone. I was on House Party, eating steak, and playing Words with Friends with three other people, like, "this is bullshit".
(laughing)
Tina: Oh no!
Aja: I play DnD my friends and then we ordered a shit ton of sushi but it got delivered to the wrong house. It was still in our- it was one of our neighbors so Postmates gave us a refund. So.
Tina: !!
Dana: Ohhh
Lyonel: Happy birthday!
Aja: Free sush on my birthday.
Tina: Hell yeah.
Aja: So if that can happen on every birthday- Postmates, if you're listening thank you.
Tina: Aja sent me a box full of pupusas- which if you don't know what they are look them up they're delicious. On my birthday and Dana sent me a shit ton of cookies and oh boy. So my birthday was great.
Lyonel: Tell us what pupusas are. Tell us.
Tina: Oh y'all.
Dana: They're delicious.
Tina: I think I made Dana eat them before.
Dana: Oh yeah, IN DC.
Tina: They're Salvadoran food. There is a large Salvadoran population in the D.C./Maryland/Virginia area which is where I grew up and they're basically like imagine a quesadilla, but like, with thicker and corn based dough. So it's like this like corn masa that's like wrapped around a ton of cheese and beans, or a squash, or pork, or whatever, and they mash it flat and fry it and then you eat it with this like spicy slaw that's like really vinegary. It is the cheesiest...
Lyonel: I'm down.
Tina: Eat a pupusa, y'all. Your action item this week is eat a pupusa.
(laughing)
Aja: Dana sent me 14 donuts...
(laughing)
Dana: You see that my love languages food.
Aja: Ya. And I eat them - we eat them.
Tina: Do y'all want to start out with little rapid-fire-question-fun-round-robin type of situation?
Lyonel: DO IT DO IT DO IT.
Tina: Let's do it. Hey Aja.
Aja: Hey!
Tina: What is your favorite non-political thing that you've seen over the past week, or experienced, or...anything.
Aja: Honestly, my favorite non-political thing that's happened this week is me being on roller skates!
Dana: Yes! Yay!
Aja: It's like, been a really fun release. And like I go out and I just watch YouTube videos of drills and things to be a better skater, and listen to music, and it's a new- it's a very new hobby and it's nice to feel- to be really new at something and like progress at it. In this very dark time of nothing. So I would have to say that.
Tina: Hell yeah.
Aja: Dana.
Dana: Yeah!
Aja: What is your favorite part Ossoff's face?
(laughing)
Tina: Thirst!
Dana: I'm gonna get in trouble. Ummm. Let's see...his tired eyes.
(laughing)
Dana: Because he's been working so hard.
Aja: Good answer!
Dana: He's been working so so hard. Tina.
Tina: Uh huh…
Dana: What is your favorite Republican bullshit thing you've seen in the last week.
Tina: Ohhh....I don't know. I mean I hate all of it, always.
Dana: Yeah yeah.
Tina: I mean, we were- as a group we were all- Lyonel texted us about, our like group chat, about - what's it called the...the like conservative social media thing?
Lyonel: Parler! Parler! Parler!
Tina: Parler!
Dana: Parler yeah!
Lyonel: With an E-R.
Tina: I just was like reading about it, and number one, that shit is horrifying. But number two, I like the idea of like, a platform where like, the whole draw of it is like, we're not going to fact check anything. And like that being a hub for all right like, that is- that is conservatives admitting that facts are their enemy. Like-
Lyonel: HA. Yeah that part.
Tina: It's a self owned, in a way that they don't understand, but that like I take a lot of- I mean it's horrifying and I wish it didn't exist and I hate everything about it, but I do love that they're basically agreeing to the fact that the facts and their ideology are incompatible. So that's, I guess kind of fun. I don't know.
(laughing)
Tina: Hey Lyonel.
Lyonel: Yeah.
Tina: What is your favorite- or the item on Joe Biden's day one task lists for when he's inaugurated that you're most excited for.
Lyonel: Oh my God! I would- actually I cannot wait for Joe Biden, on his first day in office when he gets to walk across the stage, get the opportunity to rejoin WHO. Actually, truly, truly, truly.
Because there's something about every nation in the world combining together to have a central understanding of how we're gonna facilitate life, and safety, and security for everybody on this fucking planet.
And the idea that there's a leader who's like, nah we're coming out like- that is some scary ass shit.
Tina: Yeah.
Lyonel: So the fact that he's like, "No no no I want to regain communities and allies." That's dope.
Tina: WHO baby!
Lyonel: Yeah!
Tina: Hell yeah!
Dana: Yeah. Plus mostly coronavirus is running fucking rampant. So it's like-.
Tina: Yeah.
Dana: We need to rejoin that ASAP.
Aja: Yeah.
Tina: Mmhm!
Aja: I just always hear Cardi B in my head from that video.
Lyonel: Corona VIRUS! Corona VIRUS!
(laughing)
Aja: I love it so much.
Dana: The memes are so good.
Lyonel: Shit is getting real!
Aja: In my head I'm like: corona VIRUS!
Lyonel: Corona VIRUS! It's so good.
Dana: Did you see when he got it- when Donald, ohhh good old Donny, got Covid and they they superimposed her in the background screaming that?
(laughing)
Lyonel: NO! That's good though.
Dana: Oh it was a good meme!
Aja: Oh man.
Lyonel: Would you rather...
Aja: YES!!
Lyonel: ...hold hands with Mitch McConnell…
(groaning and screaming)
Lyonel: ...For twenty four hours straight...
(more groaning and screaming)
Dana: NO!!
Lyonel: ...To bring Ruth Bader Ginsburg back? .
Aja: Ughghg
Lyonel: OR... would you rather get a kiss on the cheek repeatedly for five minutes from Mike Pence...
(general disgust)
Lyonel: And Donald Trump is never president?
Tinal: Like he never was president?
Aja: Or like he never can be again?
Lyonel: He never was.
(gasps)
Lyonel: But we get Ruth back and she doesn't come back with cancer...so: Hold hands with Mitch McConnell for 24 hours straight to bring Ruth Bader Ginsburg back OR get steady kisses on the cheek from Mike Pence for five minutes non-stop-.
Tina: I want to vomit!
Lyonel: And Donald Trump is never president. (laughs) Go with your gut.
Tina: While I'm getting the kisses slash holding the hand, can I also like punch them in the face while it's happening?
(laughing)
Lyonel: Nope. Nope. Nope.
Tina: Oh god damn it.
Dana: Can I wear a mask?
(laughing)
(more laughing)
Dana: If I could wear a mask...
Lyonel: With both?
Dana: I'll get the kisses.
Lyonel: Wait but with both situations?
(laughing)
Dana: Yeah.
Tina: You should wear a mask. Everyone wear a mask!
Lyonel: Yeah. You have to wear- you're wearing a mask-
Dana: No, I mean, a full face mask.
Aja: This actually it made me a little ill.
(laughing)
Tina: I know- ok I know my answer. Um. For me, I would definitely, ughhghg god, I would take the...I would take the kisses on the cheek-
Aja: Pence.
Tina: -if we get never a Trump presidency ever.
Dana: Me too.
Aja: Same.
Tina: I would take one for the collective team.
Dana: I love my Ruthie but....yeah.
Aja: Same
(Lyonel wretches)
Tina: What would you do, Lyonel?
Lyonel: I would have to hold Mitch McConnell's hand.
Dana: Really.
Lyonel: Yeah yeah.
Tina: I imagine the hands have those eyeballs in them like that monster from Pan's Labyrinth.
Dana: Yeah, well he looks like that fuckin monster. Like exactly!
Aja: Ughgh no. No. No.
Tina: Oh God. I feel I feel icky.
(laughing)
Tina: Yeah I mean, I guess that that brings us into what we wanted to talk about this week which- I don't know about y'all but I have been seeing, and I imagine y'all have too, a lot of posts on social media or like stuff being shared by people that's like, asking for gentleness and respect and care for Trump voters.
Like asking people to reach out and be nice to Trump voters that they know, asking people to have empathy for Trump supporters right now. "Remember how you felt in 2016. Like this is how they're feeling now." Which I will say right now I think is a bullshit thing to say and a false equivalency, but I just wanted to see what you all thought about about that ask of people-.
And then like having empathy for Trump supporters at all.
Aja: I feel really good about myself in this moment because I guess I haven't been on social media enough to see any of that.
Tina: Really?
Lyonel: Yeah, I've not seen that!
Aja: I have not seen a single post of people being like, “be nice to Trump supporters”. All I've seen is my friends being like, "I'll never fucking be nice to a Trump supporter fucking ever," and I'm like whoa- what is happening why is everyone like yelling about? It makes sense that people are posting about what you're talking about, Tina, being like, no, fuck you.
Tina: Yeah.
Lyonel: Can we clarify really quick- or is there clarification- is this 2016 Trump voters? Or are referring to 2020 Trump voters? .
Tina: 2020 Trump voters.
Lyonel: Great.
Tinal: Basically people are like- I've seen- and it's mostly I'm seeing people repost this stuff- well not mostly, it's about half and half, like seeing people repost this stuff to roast it, but then some people are reposting this stuff genuinely. Where like people are like- .
Aja: Nobody reached out to me in 2016.
Tina: Yeah yeah! And also the difference is like, you're your fundamental human rights are not under threat. Mine were in 2016, and still continue to be. So, I do think it's a false equivalency to make. And I also just like, I'm interested in what y'all think about like having empathy for- because we've talked about empathy on this podcast before and I'm just interested in what you think about like having empathy for people who intend violence towards you? Or who have voted for someone who has openly intended violence towards marginalized communities.
Lyonel: I mean a damn girl. That's a question.
(laughing)
Tina: Yeah.
Lyonel: I think this shit's wack. First of all, I think I think this is a setup. And I think I'm glad you asked the question, but I think it's a setup because applying empathy to a Trump supporter, which we've talked about empathy before in the past, is just like, I'm not sure I'm supposed to feel sorry for someone or not, because I I don't feel sorry that they lost because I voted for the person that was going to keep me- that was in line with my views in my walk and where I am at as a person.
So I don't feel, "sorry," but I don't know. There's not a need to take care of someone who voted for Trump because I don't see what they lost. So I'm a- I don't know, I'm a little confused at showing empathy for....yeah I guess, I'm confused on what I'm showing empathy for.
Dana: Well I think it stems from Joe Biden- President Elect Joe Biden- what he essentially said with leading with unity and leading to unite the states instead of coming at it from a divisive and terrible place, which is what Trump has done.
And for me it's so hard because when you don't forgive it just sits and rots and that's a difficult thing to grapple with as a human being. But at the same time, when you forgive behavior that is actively trying to harm so many people based off of things that they cannot control, it is then saying it's OK. That it's like, it's OK for this existence society. It's OK for for you to think this way when it's not. It's not ok. And even if it was a single issue vote, right, even if they somehow found something, you know a lot of people who don't understand how economics works, say it was the economy and that's why they voted for him. Or you know their, their specific business was booming because they were collecting loans or whatever, like it like they were benefiting off of in an economy that is keeping other people below the poverty line or whatever.
Right? It's really- it's hard for me to see an easy way to, 1) forgive this type of behavior and 2) to then move forward unifying 70 million people that feel this way.
Aja: Firstly I don't think that like unifying is something that they're- anyone, or I don't expect- when Joe Biden said that I wouldn't like oh tomorrow, but I do think that we do have to work towards unity as a country in general.
And that means undoing all the fucking terrible brainwashing and mind control that Trump did. And you know being open to- and not everyone has to do this, we've talked a lot about before off-line, but like I don't know that any of the people that I know-.
And for reference like, again, I am mixed-race I'm half white. A lot of my family is in Texas and a lot of them voted for Trump. So I come from a very empathetic perspective, just know knowing my family and knowing that they voted for Trump because they truly thought that that was the best thing for our country.
And yes, yes, I completely agree that you know, Trump did SO much harm to marginalized communities. And I also cannot fully blame people who are the product of a country that was founded on individualism for sticking to those principles and taking care of their family.
Like that episode of The Daily where they were interviewing- basically this woman heard that there might be voter fraud. She she went down to the polls in Pennsylvania because she was like, "I heard that there was voter voter fraud and I felt like I needed to do something," and you know she talked about her kids and how like depressed her kids were. And so, like, I don't agree with the vote at all. But I- people who don't know anyone who is being impacted by Trump's harm are being told that that harm isn't real and doesn't exist.
And if they believe that and they've been mind-controlled, if you want to call it that, or told by their president who they support- you know they trust this man, and he said, "you know it's not real like, everybody's like freaking out over nothing," and they're like, "Oh my God" - and they're personal family is being affected negatively and they are trying to do the best thing for their family.
That's a real fear. Their fear is valid. That is what they believe that's what they've been told. And for me it's not about, "oh I'm sorry you lost," it's about how can I help you understand that like, this isn't gonna be as bad as you think it is.
Lyonel: And I hear you on that. I like, I like I agree with that same setting. I like actually want to bring up like the census like there are there are 76.3 - this is according to the census as of 2019- 76.3 people in America are white like that is up that is 3/4 of the U.S. is white bodied people.
And a lot of those people are the people- the communities that voted for Donald Trump. Because to Aja's exact point, their existence unfortunately does not see them encountering people of color, people of these marginalized groups, so their opinion of those things happening are kind of based off of what they get from the media. Or just kind of circulated around what they think happens, to be completely transparent: I did not know anyone who was transgender till I did the school with Steppenwolf three years ago.
I personally just didn't know anyone who was trans at all. But what I had developed just as a person who is marginalized, like cool- it was like relatable empathy where I was like, "OK I do not know this path, but I know what it feels like on my own body to deal with this thing," right? But to speak up for that community, I actually was like I don't have a voice it.
So all that to say, I think that this question is layered, because one is about like how do we unpack the brokenness of like systemic racism in our culture? And then another thing is like, how do we break down voting normalities when they're related to like, your existence your identity.
And again I kind of take it back to tribalism, like voting Republican is kind of linked to tribalism, and it's a sense of like, "I only know this way." And when politicians are targeting that that's why they're great at what they do, they know how to politicize to the groups that they're specifically targeting.
Aja: Yeah.
Lyonel: I don't know if that answered the question, but-.
Dana: Yeah I think those are really interesting questions to ponder. And I remember you bringing up tribalism, and then like thinking about it the whole week afterwards. About how you know like, people want to protect who they see as their own.
Dana: And I have a question about this that I think- this is the specific question I've been grappling with: In the last four years, regardless of if you've been you know brainwashed, or if you have been following this man, not- well and he has done a lot, a LOT of shit to fuck up and divide.
And I mean he was on his way to be a dictator if he wasn't so fucking stupid, right?
Tina: He's still trying.
Dana: He's still trying on his way out. Nothing that this man has done or said didn't ring alarm bells enough to not put him back into office. So then I ask where does the line- where do we draw the line with who is at fault?
Because I have fully had said that you know this is a cult, right? This is like- and that involves brainwashing, and that involves playing on people's fear. And you know whatever, but where do where do we draw the line in terms of like...
Because all of these people are adults. They're over 18 years old. Right? And if nothing rang a bell, or rang an internal alarm in them, and I'm not just saying the policies that he put into place, or what he'd supposedly quote-unquote "did for the economy," but nothing that he said, starting with him you know saying "bad hombres," to the very end where he didn't (laughs) he didn't say white supremacy is wrong!
Aja: He literally just called it "China virus" like, this week again.
Tina: Mm hmm.
Dana: Yeah! I guess what I'm trying to get at is how do we forgive...
Aja: Are they asking for forgiveness? Why are we forgiving them?
Lyonel: I was gonna say, I think words are important I think we're talking about showing empathy to Trump supporters and- only reason I said that is because I think that is a specific point of view. Forgiving versus empathy.
Dana: Sure.
Lyonel: And that I'm curious again if we're breaking down "empathy," what are we really trying to ask? Like are we talking about canceling Trump supporters or are we talking about creating space to coexist with people who are Trump supporters?
Because showing empathy is a weird way of framing- what are we showing empathy to? Like showing empathy that they lost something? Or are we saying that like, you voting for Trump is a complete contradiction of my existence, so therefore I don't want you in my world? Or are we saying, how do we create common conversations, which I feel like was the question you were answering, Aja.
Tina: I feel like all of those things you just brought up like those are the different sides of the many faceted die of how we, as marginalized folks, engage with people who have, in essence, voted for a person, whether knowingly to them or not, has caused harm directly to us.
Like what is our role as marginalized people when it comes to reaching out to people who voted for Trump, in terms of like you know, understanding them? Or where they're coming from? Or in terms of trying to bring them along so that they understand where we're coming from?
In terms of forgiveness, too, you know, like if we feel that we would like to forgive someone who has done harm to us because it'll make us feel better. But I think for me the forgiveness question is like, I think you're right, Lyonel, of like what are we forgiving them for?
I think to forgive someone, especially publicly, they have to express remorse. Like I'm not gonna forgive someone if they don't show me that they are interested in where I'm coming from and express remorse for doing something that's harmful to me. Because I don't have the time or energy to just go around forgiving people who have enacted harm on me who don't care that they did.
And so I think, I think it's all- I know we wanted to hone in on a question, but I think those are all part of the same umbrella of like how do we, as people of color, all four of us, like engage with people who we may know and who we may care about, but who have done harm on us whether they know it or not.
And it's hard. It's really- I mean it. It is hard. For me personally- and I like, Aja and I have talked about this a lot before too, and we're not a monolith. People of color are not a monolith. We don't all have to deal with this in the same way. Some days I'm feeling really generous and willing to engage with people so that they can see where I'm coming from.
Some days I have no fucking time for anyone who says anything that pisses me off. So I, you know, even within myself, like my willingness to empathize with people who have caused me harm, whether they meant to or not, because impact is more important than intent, like my willingness to engage with that changes.
And I think that there needs to be space for that fluidity in the conversation of empathy too. Like I don't always have the same amount of empathy every day.
Dana: Yeah. I feel the same way. Can I really quickly say The Daily episode is called "Celebration and Sorrow: Americans React to the Election.".
Aja: Thank you! It's a hard conversation no matter who you have it with.
Lyonel: But like- Sorry I don't want to step on- go ahead.
Aja: Just that, not like "difficult" like, "ow this is hard," like because it's so it's fluid- not only from person to person, but within a person like that- it's just a...we've tackled a doozy.
(laughing)
Lyonel: But I keep wanting to break down the question because, like even amongst us 4 this is not- the point of view of this question is not the same so I can't even be like, we as people of color, because we are of color but we see this conversation differently. Like Tina I totally hear your point and I think the breakdown of the question is like, we're creating empathy and we're creating space for people who don't even realize that they have harmed another person.
And Aja, from your lens it felt like you're saying that we need to create room for these people to constantly change. So I feel like there's a navigation that we're asking. There's a call of duty that's required on both sides where it's like, one side doesn't think of what they're doing is wrong, and the other side 100% is like, "you are harming me". So. So trying to figure out a bridge that both sides can even agree on I think is half the problem.
Because I don't think I did anything wrong, and you're like I'm waiting for an apology, we're never going to arrive at the same place. So it's like, how do we even create similar conversations to where the weight of how this affects me feels match- you can match it to something in your life. Because if you don't see that affecting me, you'll never hold space for it to need to change.
And so how do you facilitate conversations with people that like, you can't even get on the same page with. I think is half the battle.
Tina: Yeah, I mean one thing I'm really stuck on is like, why is it our job to have to do the reaching? And I know that like in order for shit to happen and like for progress to be made, and for us to kind of bring people along like, that is generally how it tends to work, is like the people who are are in the position of like being targeted, and being marginalized, have to like do that work to get privileged people to come along like. But I just hate that it is that way and I'm- so I as a person am really resistant to like, doing that extra work because it shouldn't be my fucking job.
Lyonel: But I feel like that's the bullshit of America. Like everything about America is a structure. I feel like a lot of times in theater environments, in like art environments, there are people who have lived places and they are 100%, they're always working, they're always booked, they're always this, and every time you're new to a city you're like oh hey notice me!
Like hey I need this change because everything is about how do we make the structure work? How do we get to a place where things are- they're in a grid and I know what this equation looks like, right? And we as people of color, our individual lanes, or coming into a white lens- like it's just like structurally that's how it's set up here.
Dana: I guess that's what I was getting at before when. When do we hold people accountable for their own shit. There are to to see past their tribalism, to see past- because at this at the end of the day we were all taught, well I'd like to think you know, with the children's books that we've read and the things- and I won't say we all- but most of us were taught with what is good and what is bad. What is right? What is wrong?
And so either fundamentally these people are educated in a very different way or- and that may very well be true- but when do we hold people accountable for the actions they've taken to harm, or inactively harm other people? When is it their job to see it? Mm hmm.
Because they're still people you know? They're still humans. I know that like there should be alarm bells ringing- there should be something inside of you that's like, "that's wrong".
And there are so very few things in this world that are black and white, right? I operate a lot in the grey, but the right and wrong shit- we all can see it. Movies, TV, books, all this shit that we have read or seen growing up. So that's one thing that I guess it's it's tied to what Tina talks about too is like, why does it always have to be my job?
Tina: Well the thing about privilege though is that like what is it- like right and wrong are different, you know like what's right for you as a person of privilege may not be what's right for every everyone else.
So like people's perceptions of right and wrong are different already based on the way our country is structured, based on like, systemic racism, based on oppression. So I think like, to assume that we all have the same barometer of what is right and wrong assumes too much privilege.
Because like- the whole reason that like a lot of this bullshit is happening is because shit was working for like a small group of people, and they managed to convince another group of people that shit was also working for them. And then everyone else who that shit wasn't working for was like, "I'm sorry. No excuse me this doesn't work for me," and that's like, those are the two-
Dana: How this happened. Yeah.
Tina: Kind of larger factions that are I feel like, people are trying to like now advocate to unify. But like I don't know.
Unity to me is like I don't want to be unified with people who like people who have openly like spewed the hate that the Republican Party is marketing in right now. Like I don't need unity with those people. I need those people to get onboard or fucking like get left behind.
Like I, you know at a certain point like I don't want to be lumped in with those people because those people have have hurt me, people I love, and this country.
Aja: Oh for sure. I in no way think that we should be kind in reaching out to people who fucking suck and are blatantly ignoring- who have the resources and are saying that it's all lies or that it doesn't matter. But I also don't think that everyone has to be reaching out- for me the work comes from the people that I already know and that I have contact with.
It's not like I'm like going on Facebook and trying to find people who are accidentally racist and try to talk to them. It's like no I have direct contact with people that I can plant seeds- it's a fucking garden, and I'm sowing my garden every chance I get and planting tiny seeds that will hopefully start to help people think in another way.
Like whether it's talking to my dad about the debates and being like, "cool what what changes for you if Biden wins? You pay more in taxes. No, not you, because you don't make enough money."
If Trump wins again so many facets of my life are affected. So- and as, he's a white man and so like tiny seeds of just being like, hey did you know this? Hey this is my exact experience. The people who have the capacity and the contact already, I hope that they can find a way to work towards changing minds.
Or I mean if you want to fucking leave me behind behind go ahead like we are saying like everyone has their own lane. People get to set their own rules and boundaries, and I think that those rules and boundaries for each person for each person that they set for themselves are OK.
Lyonel: I just what is happening right now is you speaking on the greater common good, and then people also having conversations about a terrible dictator who like as a sole entity does harmful things. So for people to vehemently vote for him no matter if you're believing in the essence of the Republican Party, which is what I think the problem turns into, right?
Forgiving people for winning you vote for the Republican Party. I'm holding people accountable for voting for Donald Trump. And I do not think it's forgivable. Period. I don't care. People are growing, learning. I don't think that voting for Donald Trump as a sole entity is redeemable by any means.
I guess to your point. Lyonel, no I don't think that it's OK that people voted for him but I think we're giving those 70 million people more fucking credit than they deserve. Because these things don't affect them, like the four of us pay attention because it's directly affecting us.
A lot of people don't fucking pay attention to politics because it does not affect them. They don't they don't know about people- like they're not aware of all those things because they just don't pay attention to politics like.
I know a mom and someone that's like I don't like it. All politicians are liars. I don't really- I'm not even voting for the president. It doesn't matter like it doesn't matter to me. And like I totally I wish that it mattered to them- I do, but it doesn't affect them.
Lyonel: So I think that that is innocence. I think that is victimhood. I think the idea of being like, I'm oblivious to it- for me to assume that most people vote for Donald Trump are oblivious to politics, is such victimhood mentality.
I think one hundred percent they know what they're voting for when they vote for Donald Trump, and I think the essence of why people vote for Donald Trump is to preserve the whole sum of their experience and also to obtain their money. Because the issues that are happening to them do not affect them on a personal level.
So they're okay with voting for Donald Trump because it means they're gonna get more in their tax dollars, or so they assume. I just don't believe that the majority of people voted for Donald Trump are unaware of politics. I don't believe that. That is- how do you hold someone accountable for something that you're vehemently saying that they are unaware that they're doing.
If I assume that everyone who's voting for him is unaware of it, I'm giving them all an out. And how can I hold him accountable for it, they just didn't know better? That's not fair. I just don't think that's fair.
Tina: It's a privilege, it's privilege but I how you can't hold people accountable.
Aja: It's 100% privilege.
Tina: I think you can hold people accountable for that. And I think people who are privileged enough to be apathetic about that stuff should be held accountable for that because like whether you didn't vote or voted for Trump because like, you know, you just didn't like care to learn all the information, or didn't have access to it or whatever, like you contributed, you were OK enough with how it would benefit you to say OK to all this other bullshit. Like you I think you can hold people accountable for being apathetic to-.
Aja: Well, who's going to do it though?
Tina: -they're complicit. You know, whoever has the capacity to- whoever, like I think people if that's people's lane, then they should go for it is not my lane and I have no desire to engage with people who like, either- outwardly contemptuous toward me enough to vote for Donald Trump, or don't fucking give a shit enough about me or don't like realize that I exist enough to vote for someone like Trump or to not vote at all.
So I feel like that like we should hold people like that accountable, too, because that is part of the problem is like an apathy because you're okay with the status quo. When we know that a school is not acceptable.
Lyonel: The reason I don't believe it is because before this year there are so many people who coexist in circles and weren't saying anything about all of the black motions and movements that are happening groups of people. Matter of fact, I have tons of friends who were legitimately benefitting from winning from being white and they have since apologized.
For me to be like, "you weren't aware that you were winning?" is honestly- I don't believe that. I think that there's a part of you that's like, oh I should break that cycle. But to say that you did not see, you just didn't see racism? Or you just didn't see that like you were more privileged in situations and people of color, black people specifically were sitting in the back seat behind you, like most black people just don't buy that narrative.
So I think that is also shaping my opinion in this conversation of always having to adopt- and in my lane, I'm only speaking for Lyonel, my lane- adopt that white people just didn't know, is such a victim idea of seeing things, and I know that they might be working harder or just didn't know, but they 100% know that they're winning.
Aja: I didn't know.
Lyonel: You have to know- you knew that your life was comfortable. You knew that there were things that could have been more uncomfortable.
Aja: Yeah, but I was not aware that it was based on race. And this is hard for me to talk about because like, as a woman of color, as a family of color, as a family of color who did not have a lot of money. Like I am going through a lot of the same revelations that white white people are going through.
And I didn't know. And- I have black family members, and I have Latinx, family members, and I have white family members, and I have Asian family members- like and that I think is part of it that I grew up in a family that was multicultural.
There is not a single relationship in my mom's side of the family that isn't a bi-racial relationship because that's just the makeup of our family. So and because I grew up in a really diverse neighborhood like I didn't realize that outside of my bubble was a whole lot of fucked up shit going on until my adult life until, the last few years. I just didn't know because I didn't I didn't need to know.
Lyonel: And I don't think that there's a disregard to that at all. I do not think that that Lane does not co-exist. But I guess what I'm saying is your discovery doesn't outweigh the damage you figuring that out is 100% of beauty is the truth.
But at the same time it does not negate the damage that it has done. So the damage group of people are trying to figure out how to navigate a conversation that's like this hurts. But I also see that you see this.
And so that is part of the trouble of unifying because both parties are figuring something out but one is taking a deeper blow of this than the other one.
Aja: Well I guess then my question is like, if they don't see the damage, then what? Because I'm hearing- what I'm hearing is like some people being like, well I'm not talking to those people. OK. Well then if all of these people especially, the people who are saying on social media being like I'm not going to fucking have empathy for anyone who voted for Trump, then who's going to change minds.
And to your point, Tina, it's like- it shouldn't be that the oppressed and marginalized groups have to educate. But like, if they don't then literally nothing fucking changes and that damage continues that you're talking about, Lyonel. So like what's the plan then?
Tina: I mean, I think what I'm getting from this and this is such like- because there are so many layers of privilege, too like this is not a cut and dry conversation at all. But what I'm getting from, from what I've heard both of you say is like, for me it's really just an indictment of a system that allows people to exist without- either, without like, demanding that they acknowledge that other people are suffering, or like that allows people to exist in a bubble where for some reason they're not confronted with that knowledge? Systems exist in this country and this country is set up so that certain people can exist without having any access to the suffering of people who they directly have a hand in and harming.
So it feels like yes, I think like there are people who like come from places of privilege like this who educate themselves to put that work in, and I feel like asking that of people and asking like, white folks that we know, people who do operate in that sphere of privilege to do that work too.
I think like that is a way forward for a lot of us people who, like Aja was talking about, who have access to people whose minds they could potentially change. We need to start asking people who have white privilege to take that upon themselves.
Lyonel: Is the solution measurable?
Tina: No.
Aja: No.
Tina: I don't think so. I don't think it's measurable, and I don't think there is one solution.
Dana: The solution to what specifically?
Lyonel: I feel like right now we're on a conversation of how do we unify our conversations with people who voted for Donald Trump and people who voted for Joe Biden. And like where you sit. Or we can say Republican and Democrats.
But I feel like that's the nectar of what we're having a conversation about. So is it measurable? Is the solution of unifying measurable? What does it look like? Because right now it's a lot of like how I feel about why you voted, and it's a lot about like my opinions, my judgments over your choices. But if we're asking you for unifying, which is an actionable thing which is change of some sort, is that measurable at all?
Tina: I mean if we're talking about like political affiliation or like who people vote for then I think that's measurable in terms- like we can measure who voted for who, and how many people voted like, Democrat versus, how many people voted Democrat in the last election.
We can track that progress, but I don't know if the like, solution to what we're fundamentally talking about which is unifying people who have done harm and the people that they've harmed.
I don't know if it's as easy to classify that into Republican and Democrat. And so I think, simple answer like, if we're talking like just political party-wise, sure it's measurable, but I don't know if that's actually the solution, or just like a blanket that we throw over the solution. Because yeah, well yeah, I- yeah.
Aja: Yeah, like the votes aren't- the votes, measuring the votes doesn't measure the racism and the misogyny.
Dana: The problem here that I see is that in order for it to be measurable we would have to hold people accountable for the actions that they've taken. And that starts with the government. And I don't foresee that happening. And that's the big issue here right.
To unify the people, to unify this fucking country one side believes in truth, and the other has believed the lies that they have been fed. And to unify that means to resolve that specific situation.
Tina: I mean I'm not even sold on unity being the goal.
Aja: No.
Tina: Unity requires compromise, and I'm not willing to compromise- like you know I feel like the Democratic Party is already the result of a compromise between like centrists and, you know like, liberals and like-.
Dana: They're doing it now as we speak.
Tina: Yeah. And that's already not enough for me. So like for, for progressives to compromise even further in order to like...like that just feels regressive to me and I'm like that scares me too.
Lyonel: So then the rhetoric of Joe Biden asking the country to unify is actually another root root issue of us four even sitting on this call. Like- and you're very right fulfilling how you feel, Tina, I mean, I'm not cosigning or taking away is what I'm saying, but amongst us for we aren't even doing what Joe Biden is asking of the country-.
(laughing)
Lyonel: But yet we're trying to hold other people accountable to the fourth thing, and I just think this whole thing is complex. So just because we brought it up at the top of the show the idea of unifying.
Aja: Yeah. I also think that him talking about unity wasn't- I mean it was a play, in my opinion. Like he had to appease the people that didn't vote for him, he had to. I saw that. I can't tell who it was, I have to find it, someone was talking about like, "I don't believe in that bullshit unity like Joe Biden should have said that". And I was like...uhhh that might have been a move towards like quelling this potential and feared civil war.
Dana: Absolutely. Like if he said if he tried to be divisive in that speech it would have incited more violence, which is what Donald Trump is already trying to do.
Aja: Yeah.
Dana: He can't do that. Politically he can't do that.
Lyonel: No it like. Well I don't think it's I think it's part play but part true. I mean he's the president. He's actually the president.
Dana: Yeah.
Lyonel: He actually wants the country to be unified. I do believe in some truth of that. I just don't think he's gonna compromise himself. But I do believe in unity as a nectar for him as president.
And him understanding that a president purposely built divisiveness into our culture. So I do believe in him when he's saying he wants to unify. I don't think-.
Tina: Yeah I think it's both. I mean I think like a unified country is easier to govern.
Lyonel: Yeah.
Tina: It's easier to get shit done when people are unified, but also like, this is to say nothing of the fact that like the presidency and the whole executive legislative and judicial system are fucked up in like wild and convoluted way.
Aja: So fucked.
Tina: So like like yes unity serves that system and that system is messed up. So like yeah it's so complex and I feel like we could talk about this for 100 years.
(laughing)
Tina: But we don't have - I mean listeners let us know if you want us to do a 100 year long podcast. But action item this week?
Lyonel: So with the rising numbers of Covid and with this being trans awareness week why not merge the two?
So we're going to put on our Instagram, but be sure to check out Ingersoll Gender Center. They have a Covid 19 response program. It's a website. It's so dope. It just talks about all the different diverse community financial assistance programs that you can help with right now.
A lot of these programs truly give basic needs in support systems. They start at $5, they range up to $300, and every dollar you donate is going to go to this community to help them with basic essential needs right now.
So if you have the time please check out our Instagram and support. I will be supporting myself and I will post my receipt on the Instagram page as well.
Tina: Hell yeah. Thanks Lyonel. Yeah. Mutual aid is more important than ever especially as Covid numbers spike. So we'll also put some stuff on our our Linktree and our Instagram for other mutual aid opportunities in different regions of the country. So you can support your community- specifically your trans community.
Lyonel: Well everyone thank you all so much for tuning in! This is We the People where we like to keep our fresh, fun, and always unfiltered till next time.
(music)
Aja: Those...uh...rip off Takis are rumbling around in my tum.
(laughing)
Tina: I don't know if you can blame that on the question Aja.
(laughing)
Aja: I was feeling fine until "physical contact" with two of the most horrible men-
Dana: Disgusting.
(laughing)
Aja: That was a good one, Lyonel.
Lyonel: Thank you! You gotta to make it hit from the gut.
Aja: You did!
Tina: Ugh god.