Find out how the four of us feel about white feminism and the weaponization of white womanhood in the face of Amy Coney Barrett's Supreme Court confirmation hearings, the news of Amy Cooper's second phone call, and all the other bullshit we deal with every day as people of color in this country. Episode content warnings: mention of ableist language, reproductive violence, sexual assault, hate crimes
Find out how the four of us feel about white feminism and the weaponization of white womanhood in the face of Amy Coney Barrett's Supreme Court confirmation hearings, the news of Amy Cooper's second phone call, and all the other bullshit we deal with every day as people of color in this country.
Episode content warnings: mention of ableist language, reproductive violence, sexual assault, hate crimes
Follow us on instagram @wethepeoplepresent
Resources and action items on our Linktree
Cover artwork by Be Boggs
Music by Malaventura
Full transcript available HERE
Lyonel: We're We the People
Tina: And we're recording from the occupied territory of the Odawa, Ojibwe, Potawatomi people,
Dana: Or what you probably know to be Chicago,
Aja: And the Chumash, Kizh, Tataviam people-
Lyonel: or Los Angeles.
Dana: Guess what. We're all on stolen land. Take a second to learn whose land you occupy
Tina: And take meaningful direct action to decolonize and restore these lands to their rightful stewards.
Aja: Action Items and resources can be found in the link tree on our Instagram @wethepeoplepresent
(Intro Music)
Aja: Welcome back.
Tina: We the people present a podcast is who we are.
Aja: Yes it is who we are.
Tina: I'm Tina.
Aja: I'm Aja.
Lyonel: I'm Lyonel.
Dana: I'm Dana.
Tina: How's everybody doing this week.
Aja: I feel like this sums it up- how we are right now.
Tina: Yeah. You're right. Next question.
(laughing)
Tina: So, I did want to say, for the folks listening, I edit the episode so I have truly listened to our first and second episodes, like, ten thousand times and I just wanted to say something out in the open in this space because I want you all to hold me accountable to this.
But I would like to challenge myself to stop calling myself out for talking too much because I deserve to take up as much space as I want.
Dana: Yessss.
Tina: So I'm not gonna do that- or I'm going to try not to do that anymore. And I hope you all will let me know when I do.
Oh, and also I had a challenge for all four of us- which is just, I noticed a lot in my own language and just in general, like, catching ourselves when we use ablest language- like "crazy," or "insane," or, like, "nuts,"- things like that.
It's so hard to like catch but I would just like to notice when we use those things and try and avoid it. If we can.
Aja: In that vein, I do a lot of our transcription and also had some thoughts.
I mean, you know, it's always interesting to learn about yourself, but I think one of the big things that I learned is that I could stand to monitor my speech in terms of how much I say "like," "you know," "I mean,"- so yeah, I'm aware of that now.
And also just listening back I think I judged myself a lot for things that I said, which is, like the opposite of what I want us all to be doing because I think we have such a great ,safe space to learn together. And so I'm just challenging myself to stay out of my head as I'm talking from here on out, because I know that I can be, like, "oh should I have said that?" or "Oh did I say that the right way?" or "oh did my point come across?" or "oh am I wrong?" and just stay present to the conversation as much as possible, so yeah.
And I also- we've talked about, in terms of fact checking, if we ever need to call each other out to check a fact, we're just going to call each other out in real time. So you may hear somebody say something and one of us go "FACT CHECK" and then we'll probably fact check it in real time. So if that happens, now you know.
Dana: I'd like everyone to picture me dabbing when I say "fact check"
Lyonel: I love for your journey.
(laughing)
Lyonel: With that said.. I want to kind of bring up to our listeners what I text you all about earlier this week. I think current events are really important. I think that they navigate really important conversations that we all co-exist with.
And I just think that Amy Coney Barrett is very important for us to, or just as a person to bring up and talk about. Specifically on just kind of who she is and her plight, her platform, the power that she's about to be given.
I just think having a conversation about her, especially about to become pretty much a Supreme Court justice- like, let's call it what the fuck it is. What do you all think about that? Or, like, what are your thoughts on her?
Tina: I don't like her at all.
(laughing)
Tina: Even a little bit.
Dana: I think that's safe to say for all of us.
Tina: Yep. Yeah.
Aja: What I found with- I couldn't watch, and didn't watch, the entire hearing because the way that she talks is so evasive and condescending that I couldn't commit to watching that for- whatever, four hours? Was it four hours a day? Or however long it was, but I think that... she was just... it's impossible.
This is what we're up against.
Tina: Yeah, I mean, like, she refused to say anything concrete related to abortion, the Affordable Care Act, to climate change, too. She refused to dignify whether she, like, her beliefs on that would influence her rulings. And if you can't do that then you're not qualified to be a Supreme Court justice.
If you're not willing to do that you're a fucking asshole. And also you shouldn't be a Supreme Court justice.
Dana: Yeah. I feel I feel like her- the way that she responded to everything, I felt like I was being gaslit. Like all the stuff that I had read about her- and that's how the Republican Party has operated. Obviously. We have just been gaslit for four years consistently. And that's what she did. That's exactly what she did.
But she phrased it in a way that was eloquent, and intelligent, and that to me is almost worse than...the, like, jargon that Donald Trump uses.
Lyonel: I think what's really important, or what really struck me, was just- and what feels very prevalent about her and why I brought this up was, like, we we just deserve to hear facts. And I feel like as people we're not hearing facts, like, we're not getting questions answered and there was something about her hearing that stuck out to me in the fact that her journal didn't have any notes written in it.
(groans)
Dana: Oh my God.
Lyonel: Just a fairness of, like, if you're going to be a Supreme Court Justice, and truly focusing on Amy right now, like, her specifically, I just feel like we keep putting people in positions like her... that are not telling us anything and that is frustrating. It's her getting into this position where she's not answering any questions based off what she plans to do- which is so different than the person that she's replacing.
So that is really also another thing about her hearings that struck me.
Dana: How long has she been a judge? She's been a judge for, like, three years, right?
Tina: Three years, yeah.
Dana: That's not even enough to graduate college.
Tina: And she was pushed into that position. Like over an Obama appointee. So it was already fucked up her getting that position in general.
Dana: Yeah. It's really it's really hard to- it also for me brings up the, like, "when they go low, we go high".
But, for me, it's becoming a really difficult thing to grapple with because of the fact that, it's almost like it's like that bully on the playground that keeps pushing you down. There are two sides to it.
It's like the parent that says, "just keep your head up keep going." And then the other parent that says, "push them back and they're never going to do it again." And I just feel like the Democratic Party always follows the line of, like, keep your head up high. Keep walking.
And it's... I don't know. I feel like I don't know. That might be a different story, or a different conversation entirely, but that's what I have been thinking about this past week, too.
Lyonel: I want to quote her because I think that it's also really important, I mean because one: she just she didn't answer any questions on abortion, she didn't answer any questions on the Affordable Care Act, she didn't answer anything on my gun rights, any legal disputes-
Dana: Climate change.
Lyonel: Nothing at all. But she did very clearly discuss, like, originalism.
(groans)
Lyonel: And like, her words- quoted- she says, "I interpret the Constitution as a law, that I interpret its text as text, and I understand it to have the meaning that it had at the time people ratified it. So that meaning doesn't change over time. And it's not up to me to update it or infuse my own policy views into it."
Which is literally like a wrap around version of saying, like, the law is the law, I cannot change it, I don't know how to do anything with it, it has to be original. But you're 100 percent in a position to where you have law and you use your personal judgment with the law- like, you were saying: you can't use your own point of view because the law is the law. You're not equipped for this position.
Dana: It's also saying that humans don't change, time doesn't change, nothing fucking changes. Like that's essentially what she's saying and it's like, are you serious right now?
Lyonel: Yeah!
Dana: Like, what are you talking about?
Aja: Yeah. Like, if you honor that law then you shouldn't even be up for this job.
Tina: Yeah.
Lyonel: Yes. That point exactly.
Aja: If you're sticking to the original meaning
Lyonel: of originalism
(laughing)
Aja: of originalism then you actually should not be sitting in that chair for this position.
Tina: Yeah you can't pick and choose. Also it feels like a really coded way of saying like let's go back to those "good old days"-
Dana: YUP
Aja: Oh my god.
Tina: When all people were even more fucking "on top" than we already like-
Dana: Didn't Lindsey Graham say that, too?
Tina & Aja: Yeah.
Dana: Didn't he say, like, "the good old days".
Tina: Yeah.
Aja: Mm hmm.
Lyonel: Well, that's the other problem too with, like, these laws, right? They're bullshit. Because if you keep it "original," the "original" things keep people not in privilege out of the conversation. Like, I don't want to step into that right now but, like, honestly sticking to you (Amy) having this position is....putting you (Amy) in a position, and you not giving your opinion about laws at that affect different groups of people, who for the terms of this conversation, could be minorities...
If you don't have a point of view on what actions you're going to take, different groups of people do not understand how you're going to service them or not service them. So it's actually incredibly dangerous because, at least make me aware of what you're going to do. But to not have an opinion but to have the power to change everything in my life- the votes that she's allowed to make are huge. Huge, huge, huge, huge, huge.
Tina: Because it's not like she's not going to let her personal alignment infuse itself into the decisions she writes.
Dana: It also implies the law is clear cut, too, which it's not. It's very much not.
Aja: Isn't the whole reason you get into that line of work so that you can fight for your views?
Dana: Right.
Aja: And your community that believes in those same views?
Tina: And the way your community interprets the law.
Lyonel: Yeah! At least say that part!
Tina: Spineless. It feels spineless.
Lyonel: Yeah. What I didn't need to know is that you have two black children from Haiti. I just, I didn't need to- I actually need to know your opinion on abortion. I need know your opinion on the Affordable Care Act.
Tina: I didn't need to hear you use your children.
Dana: I don't need to know how many children you have. I don't even know any of that.
Lyonel: I actually want it to be like a speed date. I wish you were behind a curtain. I don't even need to know that you're a woman. I need to know: what do you think about Obamacare? What do you think about gun laws?
Like, actually- "NEXT"- I want a buzzer. I want a buzzer.
(laughing)
Lyonel: I don't care! "I have 8 children" BUZZ.
Dana: NEXT. Next.
Tina: I would watch the shit out of that show. Where like a bunch of Supreme Court Justice prospectives are on a bus, and then they all come out of the bus and then-
Lyonel: The "next" bus.
(laughing)
Lyonel: Tina you're so 2017.
Dana: I love it. I love it now.
Lyonel: Yeah! Because I think that I know too many plights about her as a woman vs. her as an entity. Which is also so detrimental. One: stop pulling around black children. They are not medallions, ok? We are human beings not fuckin'... medallions. Like I just said.
And, two: like, you being a woman is part of your conversation. It is not your only conversation. And, like, I just want to know more facts about you as a judge- for barely 3 years- uh, fact check me, was that 3 - 4 years? What did we say?
Tina and Dana: 3.
Lyonel: Yeah. And what you did at Notre Dame, and, like, with a college of that background how does that affect your work?
That's all people are asking, and I think again the bigger thing is that we deserve people who are going to be honest for us in office.
Tina: Yeah that's like so wild that that's our bar. It's, like, literally buried underneath the ground is where the bar is, right?
Dana: It's so low. It's so fucking low. Just be honest with us.
Tina: Let us know how much you're gonna fuck us over.
Aja: Just answer going to answer any question.
Tina: Yeah, like be accountable.
Aja: You were questioned for so many hours. You could answer three questions, you could answer two questions. Any questions.
Tina: I hate it.
Aja: Any questions.
Lyonel: Even her disposition on using the N-word and in facilities and places that you work, like, not believing using the N-word creates hostile environments.
Aja: Yeah it doesn't mean that their actions are racist if they- it's just baffling- sorry go ahead, Lyonel.
Lyonel: No, I just want to quote this correctly. She didn't specifically say calling a black employee the N-word does not make for a hostile environment, but she did not outright declare that being called the racial slur does not create a hostile environment.
She did say in an opinion that one plaintiff who was called the racial word by a former supervisor was not sufficient evidence to support their claim of a hostile work environment.
So, like, I interpret that to mean that, like, using that word doesn't necessarily mean enough for me to think that the work environment is hostile.
But the fact of the matter is... you not implicating that that word is a hard stop? But showing me you have two black children? I don't need to know that opinion about your platform as a Supreme Court Justice.
Again, I need to know what you think what Obamacare, what you think about abortion, what do you think about gun laws? But, like, this goes into a moral conversation now and I don't understand you morally.
Dana: Yeah totally. And it's you not recognizing that if people can use that word freely in a work environment, but not acknowledging the fact that that work environment by nature is a terrible work environment? Like...
Aja: that a person can use that word...
Dana: Can just use that word, and, like, what??
Aja: Yeah.
Tina: A decision the eye of hers from the past that I just learned about that made- I mean it made me so fucking angry- is she ruled- it was a sexual assault case, a 19 year old pregnant inmate at a prison was repeatedly assaulted by a guard and she ruled that the prison could not be held liable for the assault, because assaulting the inmate was not part of the guard's duties. Like work duties. That was the thing that she ruled. And I mean, like, it's infuriating no matter fucking what
Aja: WHAT
Lyonel: She ruled that??
Dana: That's fucking insane. Ohp sorry! Calling myself out- I just used the word "insane", my bad.
Tina: Oh thank you!
Aja: Thanks, Dana! That is so...the opposite of who I want making decisions.
Dana: Also where is that in law??? She ruled that, right?
Tina: Yeah. It's legal gymnastics to, like, help an institution that is abusive-
Dana: Right.
Tina: -avoid accountability and continue abusing people.
Dana: So this original text or whatever, point in case right there, that was that isn't just, like, following the law whatever- she made that decision.
Tina: Mm hmm.
Aja: Yes.
Lyonel: Well, again, I think it's- it also really goes back to this thing, though, that a lot of conservatives do. Which is, like, they go back to original text for things that don't apply to them or relate to them.
So she is using this plight in order to be like, "you know the original job was not that so anything outside of that is on his personal terms. I cannot hold him accountable for that for his workplace environment"
Aja: That actually makes me ill.
Lyonel: Yeah. Also how can you represent groups of people that aren't like you?
Tina: Well yeah. Also how can you capital- like... I hate it so- like with something that gets my blood boiling is when people who capitalize on like being advocates for a marginalized identity, then turn around and do nothing but make it harder for that group to live full and safe lives.
Aja: Yes!
Tina: You are specifically using your position of power to deny this inmate, who was a woman, to deny her bodily autonomy, safety, to, like, help hold her abuser accountable. And then you're turning around and you're being like, "I'm a woman so I'm good for the Supreme Court," like you are using your status as a as a woman, and as part of what is a marginalized group, to help yourself, and then making it so much harder for everybody else.
Aja: Well, that's like the article you sent us Lyonel, from Politico. About her being "a new feminist icon" like WHAT?
Dana: That opened up a can of worms for us
(laughing)
Lyonel: Yeah, because new feminist implies this, like, radical new objective on it. Like, in the very least you're actually none of the sort, because the whole basis of being a feminist is creating opportunities for women- and correct me if I'm wrong- creating lanes for women to actually be able to have choices, and things that don't limit or dictate their choices, based on solely the fact that they're a woman.
Because she's someone who is asserting herself in opportunities where like she's using her, um, "I'm a mom of seven and I'm doing x, y, z in terms of creating lanes and opportunities for myself as a well-off woman who's a lawyer. I'm a lawyer," kinda along the lines where it's, "I'm doing my job and I'm not speaking about being a woman. I'm getting it done.
So therefore, like, I'm not saying I'm a woman so therefore this- but what is sneaky is everything that is described about her is all the things that make her an "awesome woman". Like calling someone an amazing mom means that I'm implying that you're a woman, it's like when someone like, "I don't see color." No no, I see that you're black. Like, I see that you're a woman, you're a great mom, because you're a mother, you're a woman.
Did that point make sense?
Dana: Yeah!
Tina: Also, like, we don't ever use parenthood is like a qualifier for for men's accomplishments, or men's quality. Like, we never use parenthood to laud men for, their, like, who they are as people.
Dana: Or any other woman besides a white woman.
Tina: Yeah.
Aja: Yeah.
Tina: Yeah, it's always, like, a negative.
Dana: Yeah. It's a negative if, like, a BIPOC has a lot of kids. Like, it's always thrown in their face. And immigrant women. Or like, really anybody but white women.
Tina: Yeah.
Lyonel: Honey, y'all let Tina from down the block have six kids and try to run for office. It is going to- oh, well Tinas here. A perfect example, I mean-
Tina: With my six children!
Lyonel: I've meant in my homegirl from the barbecue, Tina. Not Tina.
Tina: But I do live down the block from you.
(laughing)
Lyonel: You do.
(laughing)
Lyonel: But you know it's, like, let your home from the block who is amazing- who has the same amount of credits- come to the table.
There's something about her existence and a black body- or an of color a body that, like, is a hinderance. It's a burden. It's let's reflect on how you have these six children.
Aja: Just also the idea that she's being applauded for- this article in Politico, which we can link up in the link tree, if people haven't seen it. It talks about how she is reframing, or reshaping, I don't remember exactly how they describe it-
But basically saying that, like, one of the reasons that she is "a new feminist icon" is because she- her relationship with her husband was such that... they shared the responsibilities and, like, that, you know, like, she was able to pursue her work because they balanced the responsibilities of taking care of their children. And, I'm like, you can't be a feminist with that kind of support-
Like not everyone has the ability to have a partner who is able to share that work with you, and have the job and income and security that you have, and have a sister or sister-in-law that can come, or an aunt or something, that can come watch the children and help. That's three people raising your children and not everyone has that. And if you're gonna have that and not fight for the people who don't have that then you are not being a feminist.
Tina: Yeah.
Dana: Exactly.
Dana: And you know what? Culturally that has become acceptable. You wanna know why? You wanna know why it's acceptable that both parents can- that men now can, or a partner now can be in charge of the children, instead of, like, the typical housewife role? Don't you think that we have feminism to thank for that?
Aja: Yes.
Dana: To push for different roles in the household. Like, just the simple fact that they can say that- you know I mean? Am I making sense?
Tina: Yeah! It's like it's like walking through- I mean, there have been all kinds of tweets and stuff about this- like walking through an open door and closing it for everyone behind you.
Aja: Yes.
Dana: Exactly. Yeah.
Aja: Well- and that's not what happened for her. She was able to get where she is today because other women fought for her to have that right, and now she's not fighting for women to have the same rights.
Lyonel: Correct.
Aja: She's actively willing, or I mean I can't quote that cause she hasn't said it word for word, but in her actions and what she represents and what she's done in the past, she's not sticking up for anybody.
Tina: Yeah. Oh yeah.
Dana: Right.
Tina: It's purely, like, self-motivated. I also will say just at this point in the conversation that, like, yes this is a conversation about feminism and largely women: but feminism as a movement- and I majored in women's studies in college, so, like, this... I have all kinds of stuff to say about this- but I will challenge us in our conversations to expand our perspective on who she's directly a danger to- from just women as we understand it to-
Aja: Everyone.
Tina: Folks with uteruses- yeah, truly everyone, but it's not a binary of like women and men-
Aja: Thank you.
Tina: You know reproductive rights impact all kinds of folks. But yeah. I mean, it's so- it's interesting to me because "feminism" in big quotes, like, the way that it has been commodified so fast, and, like, turned into a weapon against the folks that it is intended to advocate for.
It is wild. And it's just sad. It makes me really sad. But this is, like, a prime example of it is like, someone using feminist ideology and talking points to help themselves out and then absolutely putting zero of their money where their mouth is.
And it has been kind of branded like white feminism as a kind of a broader term- but that's that is what it is. To me. Is, like, a commodification of a movement that was built and generally intended to allow for choice and to allow for folks to, like, have the freedom of self-determination- whatever that looks like. And it's been turned into something really ugly in a way that I hate.
Dana: And this- all of this comes in the backdrop of two other things. Actually, like three other things that happened in the past week.
One of them being Bill Burr calling out white feminism SNL, to Amy Cooper- there's been new update with Amy Cooper in that there was a second phone call. And for those of you who may have forgotten who Amy Cooper is because this year has been a wild ride.
Tina: Dumpster fire.
Dana: Dumpster fire. Amy Cooper was the woman who called the police on a birdwatcher.
Lyonel: Choked her dog.
Dana: Choked her dog. Meanwhile this man who is trying to get her to put her dog on a leash, which is what all of the signs said in the actual park. Anyway-
Lyonel: All this Black man..
Dana: All this Black man, exactly, sorry. But there was a second phone call that was made, and the last thing that happened was-
Aja: That same day right? The second phone call the same day?
Dana: Yeah. And the last thing that happens was the vice president debate with Kamala. And how there was a tweet that came out by Britney Johnstone, and she said, "A lot of white women this morning think they're Senator Harris in that situation. We saw last night were actually where Susan Page: failing gold white men accountable for their actions and found what little institutional power and privilege we have to level the playing field."
Tina: That power and privilege isn't little, it's huge.
Dana: Yeah
Aja: Yeah.
Dana: There was response to that too, where it's like, little? What are you talking about little? Yeah.
Lyonel: Well I think that is birthed out of- go ahead, go ahead
Dana: But it bring it brings us to this page that I think has been a constant discussion of white feminism and how it plays into society. And it plays into feminism as a whole and how we kind of came to this question.
Of...what's the question.
(laughing)
Aja: Can feminism be privileged?
Dana: Yeah. Can feminism be privileged?
Aja: Absolutely.
(laughing)
Lyonel: 100%. 100%. Because the fact of using little, just of jump, is so selfish. It's so from the mindset of like I only exist, like, this big when you're scaling against a white man, but, like, as a white feminist you already have more rights than literally all the people of color that are behind you.
So for you to actually say "little" is such a huge marker as to where your lens on this whole entire equation is. Where your lens into this whole ability to be able to take up space and be in rooms- it's so one-track-minded, it which I think is a huge detriment. And it is also sneaky. It's very, very sneaky where people use that and don't realize there are already five steps ahead.
Aja: Right. Rights, and respect, and believability
Tina: Yeah, and resources.
Aja: Resources.
Tina: Like opportunities. For me, so the answer to the question, the short answer for me is like, yes, obviously feminism can be privileged, but like we already are working off of a warped perception of what what feminism actually is.
Aja: Yeah
Dana: Yeah
Lyonel: Well, I mean it's like feminism being privileges like it goes back to white privilege for white dudes.
No one black is surprised by, like, this white woman becoming highly fucking successful and qualified, and getting to quantify her seven children, including her two Black- her two children of color. Right?
It's the same way that I feel I've heard my white friends, and some of them are listening, and they're like, "oh my black friend," or like "I love my friend" and, like, the minute that you use your friend of color's color to describe, them you're 100% doing what a privileged person does every single day.
So she is able to be where she is because of the "miraculous", like her being a "miraculous white woman" who put off all these amazing things. Meanwhile women of color have done the exact same attempts and being shunned for their very existence of being of color. Like women have tried to get ahead, and they're like "oh but you have all those kids." Literally I have a friend, I will not say say name right now, he is white- and I think that's important for this story- was telling me he's over a voting firm right now with everything happening.
And there was a woman who was qualified to be a supervisor and she ended up not getting the position because during her interview the other guy who was on the call with my friend, and his supervisor told my friend, "it just sounded like she had a lot of noise in the background" To which I found out later my friend was, like, yeah she's at home and she has two children- but also she stated her color and part of her conversation. He was, like, and therefore her having disruption in the background seemed like she would have a "hostile work environment" is his exactly words.
But meanwhile this woman is, I don't know shit about some people some time involving what they do, but her- when we think about I just hate it there's white women in politics right now who are getting ahead by being the very thing that is limiting other people.
Dana: But it's so ridiculous because we're in a pandemic, too. Like. What??
Not like- on top of that. Yeah, that's...like yeah.
Lyonel: I mean think about the #metoo movement though right. If the question is like, "can feminism be privileged?"...it's like, literally the #metoo movement was started by a black woman. And I can assure you that most people don't know that. Fact check me later. I could be fucking wrong.
Tina: No, you're right.
Dana: You're right.
Lyonel: Most people don't know that because it's not cool until it's commercialized by privileged communities. And I feel like that's a big conversation that marginalized people feel all the time is that their existence is not great until people of privilege are on board with it.
So therefore, you know, I think white women get ahead quicker than other groups of people- which is not to say they don't- it's not to say you don't have to fight, but it's the idea that marginalized groups are waiting for privileged communities to give them an OK.
Or give them, "I co-sign this thing," and not because marginal groups of people are like,
"it's not good to you say it," but it's, I know I won't have any clearance.
Tina: Power.
Lyonel: Power, yeah. A platform until it's commercially cool.
Dana: Yeah.
Aja: Yeah. Not like waiting, like, "I'm waiting!!" but like...they have to wait.
Lyonel: Yes. Yeah.
Tina: I don't have access. Because you denied me access. Also for a fact check, the #metoo movement was founded Tarana Burke.
Aja: Tarana Burke!!
Tina: Yeah.
Lyonel: We love her.
Dana: Yeah. I mean, like, we can just tell how far we need to go. And I understand in regards to the Bill Burr and if you haven't listened to it you can find it on SNL- you can look up his opening remarks but it kind of made a splash.
(laughing)
Dana: There was certainly a response.
Lyonel: Honey he let them have it, bitch!!
(laughing)
Dana: But, like, you can tell how far we need to go simply by the specific white women response to his- and you can look on Twitter, I'm sure there are pages it on it- their response to his opening remarks on SNL.
And I understand Bill Burr is, what's the word? Contentious?
Tina: Divisive?
Dana: Divisive. Sure. He's not everyone's comedic brand. That's fine. And he is a white man calling this stuff out, but a big point that was made was that only he could call this stuff out.
Aja: Yeah.
Tina: Everyone else would get destroyed!
Dana: If anybody else did that, if anyone said anything about white women on on SNL, it would be, like... a storm.
Aja: And for people who haven't seen it yet- paraphrasing it a bit, but he basically says white women have hijacked the woke movement. So that's the comment. And then there's like a little tangent after that. So if you haven't heard it yet and you're going to, just for context.
Tina: It's also like... people folks of color have been saying that stuff for ever.
Dana: Wild.
Tina: And has anyone been fucking listening? Why is this what it took for this conversation to be happening on a large scale?
Dana: Right.
Tina: That's, I mean, like, up to a certain extent, like, everything he said was correct. I have a problem with the fact that it took a whole white man saying this for people to start talking about it, and also that a white man is- it felt like he was punching down, which he was right in everything he said. But also, like, you are also a member of a community that is responsible for not only the oppression of everybody that you're calling out is also responsible for, but also for that group as well.
So, like, just recognize that you also occupy a position of privilege that is beyond, like an acknowledgement of that would have been enough.
Lyonel: I hear exactly what you're saying, but like when... He had to say something.
Like, it's also that thing, too, like when we check people, it's: do we continue to fault people for like what they've done or if they like are choosing today to do something different? So, I think he is a white man who is a part of a community. But I think the bigger thing is like do we just always drag white people you know or is he able to be like...
Tina: But it felt like he was using his privilege to like, he was using his privilege and his position in a way that was helpful, but also like for me it just would've been nice if he'd recognized like, "and I'm a white man, so my people are even worse... about all of this."
Lyonel: I think I respect him so much- especially in the black community, like I have homies and home girls and, like, even my mom made a comment you know, it's like... he also has a Black wife, which I think is very important to state.
Tina: And he did use her as a prop.
Lyonel: Exactly.
Dana: He didn't even mention it.
Lyonel: So I think there's something important about him being, like, I am clearly a white man- like, me saying that I am a white man is an identifier for you, but, like, I am up here as a white man saying this... but... I actually respected the way that he did it.
I thought that that was so dope, I didn't feel like he needed to give me any other qualifier. Because sometimes I think that white people do it because they're like, "look see I qualified myself, I did this thing, like, as a white person I'm doing the right things."
Actually, I just need- again the speed date veil to be down, and I just need to hear you say the words of, like, calling shit out for what it is and then moving without needing... but that's my thoughts.
Aja: Dana, you go ahead.
Dana: I think the biggest thing for me was the reaction online shows me how far we still need to go. You know what I mean? Like, the fact that there was such a reactive, like, "how could you say that" by what I assume was predominantly white women responding to him, instead of-
Tina: We're supposed to be in this together.
Dana: But the basic acknowledgment is the first thing that we need to move forward. And the fact that it was like not that, but rather "how could you say that" shows me just how far we still need to go with us.
Aja: And to that end, I just wanted to bring this conversation around to the question of can feminism be privileged? And like if you are a white person, and I am a half white person, like what can I/we be doing to use that privilege to support?
Lyonel: I also think that white privilege is a conversation of accepting... a privilege as a conversation of who is in power right. And a lot of times it's, like, white people are of the structure of privilege, you know?
But. I just think that there is something about you know, if you're adopting black children you're not denouncing black things that are happening... like when people use words like the N-word, and not calling it a hostile environment, but telling people you're incredibly, like, sad about George Floyd.
Like not to go back to Amy, but just as an idea of you're either racist or you're not, right? Like you're either for racism or you're not for racism. But a lot of times my opinion, like, white colonizers like, adopt black children or they'll adopt these things and they're, like, using them as props in their pictures of denial. Like the child is my denial, or this thing I have is my denial. So it's... I can't be privileged because I am a feminist. But it's... what level is your feminism getting you in rooms that it's not getting other people. So I think that the bigger, again, back to the question, is like you know can you can feminism also be privileged.
It's yes. You can still create a structure at which like, you make yourself better than other people OR you are using this plight and therefore it on your body is getting you in places that it 100% is not getting other people on the elevator for.
Tina: Yeah, well to say nothing of the way that specifically white femininity and white womanhood have been weaponized against so many other communities- like we were talking about Amy Cooper earlier.
Using her status as a white woman- like she knows what an officer is going to hear when they hear her on the phone. Like weaponizing that position of privilege over someone to hurt them, like, there there's like a whole history of associations of delicacy with white womanhood and fragility and like the need to protect this version of femininity as-
I mean it's, like, this is horrible to to bring up but like-
Lyonel: Say it.
Tina: Like it's partially responsible, no it is entirely responsible for what was done to Emmett Till.
Dana: Right.
Tina: You know, like, a white woman lied about, you know, what he did and everyone instantly A) believed her, and B) were like- all these white men were so quick to like "what we have to protect this woman, and her fragility, and her purity," and use that as an excuse for horrific violence.
Lyonel: Yeah, it's the idea that, like, it's where does the sovereignty behind your existence come into play, right? Like a lot of times black women for example, like the R. Kelly special aren't forgiven for being... for being women, you know, like, there is there's a vision of them that is, like, oh they're hyper sexualized, or they grew up fast, or like, I don't believe innocence on them.
So it's like feminism in the form of when does the innocence of it kick in and work for you and doesn't work for you.
Tina: I mean, like, any movement it can be co-opted by those who you know have the most power within it to serve that experience, like, you know it's a the movement and it has flaws and I think it's been co-opted in that way which, you know. Yes. Is the answer.
Dana: Yeah, I think the heart of the matter here is... approaching your... approaching your, I guess...
Because if we look at white women are still women right. So in some form they are oppressed. But the issue is that we forget that multiple truths can happen, right? So you can be oppressed in some way, but also you still hold privilege.
And I think the acknowledgement of oppression with white women, there is an acknowledgement that there isn't always an acknowledgement with the privilege that comes with it.
Lyonel: Well I guess like...small question: Can feminism be dictated by emotions? Like does the way I feel about you as a woman change what I allow you to get? Like if I believe more innocence on you, does that allow me to give you more opportunities, versus if I- you know I mean? Like feminism being the idea of women deserve these rights, women deserve these things, and at base, women always have rights, but giving them to certain groups- do certain groups get rights quicker? Or better? Or sooner?
Tina: Yeah
Lyonel: I guess, so that's what I'm saying, it's like- is feminism, is there any emotion attached to it based on how I feel about you as a woman?
Tina: Yeah. And it's like, for me it feels so based on like how how certain groups of people perform womanhood. Because like the people giving the rights and the people with the power to make the change are generally, I mean, you know, men or white women. Some women of color. But like in the minority.
So, like, it's based on not only that perception of this womanhood but also in how we perform what they expect to womanhood to be.
Lyonel: Mm hm.
Tina: So I mean, like, it's a big part of the reason why people like Amy Coney Barrett are allowed to exist to... basically receive the full benefits of the system because she's performing a womanhood that these governing bodies understand, versus people who who exist as women in ways that they don't understand and don't have, like, access to in the media, or whatever it is.
So it's like it's about our perception as much as it is about an identity.
Who has action items for people this week??
Dana: I'll go first. You can check this out on our Instagram but I will just reiterate it here. If you are in California the Republican Party is up to their fuckery. They have placed basically fake ballot boxes throughout the state. So. Please, please, please, please, please double check. Especially with your state website for California on what the ballot box should look like.
And I believe that soon voting centers are going to start to pop up as well. But if you are in California please, please, pretty please- and you're in you're voting by mail, just double check before you drop it off at any ballot box.
Aja: On voting. Just keep checking in with your friends and family, especially if you have people in key states. We need every vote we can get for the best possible outcome. Hold your people accountable.
(groans)
Tina: I have actually have a two pronged action item this week centered around voter suppression. And the kind of immediate one is I would like to ask people to donate to organizations that are combating voter suppression of communities of color.
Two organizations that you can check out and donate to our Voto Latino, which specifically helps enfranchise Latinx voters, and Black Voters Matter fund is also a really great place to check out for enfranchising black voters.
Especially in places like Georgia where, like, they are up to some bullshit right now, in specifically predominantly Black communities in Georgia. In terms of, like, how long they're making people wait to vote, access to voting and access to transportation to voting centers. It's truly wild. So those are two organizations you can check out.
And then part two of my action item is look up your state, or any states you have affiliations with, what their laws are on convicted felons and voting, because that is often a way that marginalized communities are also disenfranchised in terms of voting.
Dana: Florida and California are the big two.
Tina: The big two. And my overarching action item for that is... maybe do some research and invest in prison abolition as the system. Not only the laws to allow convicted felons to vote, but abolishing that whole system as a whole.
So a good place to start is Critical Resistance- and all these things will be in the link tree and our Instagram under the podcast tab. But Critical Resistance is a great place to start,
in terms of information and in terms of targeted actions. So those are my action items this week.
Lyonel: I had some, but I'm going to save them for next week because I feel like you three offered a great plethora. So I think that's enough for our listeners, I'm gonna save mine for next week.
Dana: Perf.
Tina: Sweet. Don't forget! Please rate, review, subscribe to this podcast! We need those reviews- how ever many stars you want to give us (but it should be five). Because we're great. Yeah. Send us a review.
Dana: Help us.
Tina: Yeah, help us, we're new!!
Lyonel: Hey everyone! Thanks again for tuning in where we like to keep it fresh, unfiltered and right here for you. Again this is another episode by #wethepeoplepresent
(music)
Aja: We don't have a Patreon.
Dana: Subscribe!
Lyonel: Please subscribe to our only fan.
Aja: If you send me five hundred dollars...
Tina: I'll text you!
Dana: Our Olney fans would be great. Yeah.
Lyonel: 100%. I've got good content.
(laughing)
Tina: In case the listeners don't know, we're all dreamy as hell.
(laughing)
Lyonel: And Dana dances. Not that she's not dreamy, but she'll also dance for you.
Aja: I sway. Very well.
(laughing)
Tina: I'll give you a little hair toss. That's what I'll throw in there.
Dana: Yeah.
Lyonel: I twerk...I twerk.
Dana: And together we're Captain Planet.
Lyonel: Get me off this planet.
(laughing)
Lyonel: I love you all. I hate it here.
Aja: Is Mars ready yet?
Lyonel: Oh my god, I hate it here this year.