This week, we're tackling the evils of capitalism through the lens of anti-racism, the arts, colonialism, what's going on in Texas, and the live action Cinderella starring Brandy and Whitney Houston. Episode content warnings: racism, colorism
This week, we're tackling the evils of capitalism through the lens of anti-racism, the arts, colonialism, what's going on in Texas, and the live action Cinderella starring Brandy and Whitney Houston.
Episode content warnings: racism, colorism
Follow us on instagram @wethepeoplepresent
Resources and action items on our Linktree
Cover artwork by Be Boggs
Music by Malaventura
Full transcript available HERE
Lyonel: We're We the People
Tina: And we're recording from the occupied territory of the Odawa, Ojibwe, Potawatomi people,
Dana: Or what you probably know to be Chicago,
Aja: And the Chumash, Kizh, Tataviam people-
Lyonel: or Los Angeles.
Dana: Guess what. We're all on stolen land. Take a second to learn whose land you occupy
Tina: And take meaningful direct action to decolonize and restore these lands to their rightful stewards.
Aja: Action Items and resources can be found in the link tree on our Instagram @wethepeoplepresent
(music)
| Dana: Shabangin! What's up, everybody? How's it going? |
| (Various Greetings and laughter) |
| Dana: I'm Dana. |
| Aja: I'm Aja! |
| Lyonel: I'm Lyonel. |
| Tina: I'm Tina. |
| Dana: And we are We the People, welcome to our fifteenth? |
| Lyonel: Episode! |
| Aja and Dana: One five! |
| TIna: I wish I knew, like, what medal the anniversary was, you know, how like some like one's like the paper and ones- I don't know what 15 is. |
| Aja: Oh, if only we had, like, some way to look that up. |
| (Laughter) |
| Lyonel: If somewhere there was a computer in front of me, I could google. |
| Dana: An encyclopedia. |
| Aja: Hmm... You know, I'm reaching into the furthest reaches of my brain to remember. And I think it's Crystal. |
| Lyonel: CRYSTALLL |
| Dana: Tina is getting us all crystals! Swarovskis. |
| (Laughter) |
| Tina: Check your mailbox!!! |
| Aja: SWAROVSKIIII! |
| Lyonel: And a good gift is watches. |
| Dana: Ooohh!! |
| Tina: Oh, so you always know what time it is. |
| Dana: A Crystal watch. |
| Lyonel: Yeah. So that's great. |
| Dana: Thank you, Tina. |
| Tina: You're welcome. |
| Aja: My mind for whatever reason, went to like a watch that tells you what kind of crystal you have. |
| (Laughter) |
| Aja: That's not a thing. I don't know. That's to my brain, my brain went into cartoonland- |
| (Laughter) |
| Dana: Well, that's where mine is most of the time. |
| Tina: Speaking of cartoons though. |
| Aja: Lizzy McGuire |
| Aja: Oh, YEAH!! |
| Tina: That's like inadvertently a great segue into our Round Robin!! |
| Aja: Yes. Which is Disney Crush-es. |
| Dana: Your very first Disney Crush. |
| Aja: (Whispering) Very first Disney Crush. |
| (Laughter) |
| Lyonel: So does this mean, like my very first crush that I like, was like, "Oh my God, you're so hot" or "I want to be you"? I know that's a difficult question, but I'm difficult. |
| Dana: A little bit of both? |
| Tina: Yeah, I think both. |
| Lyonel: Ok. Great great great. |
| Aja: Yeah. Like, I think I think I've seen it asked before, like what Disney character, like made you feel things for the first time? |
| Dana: And you're like, what are these things that I'm feeling? |
| Tina: I don't know if it was a crush, but I did make people for a very long time insist that people refer to me as either Aladdin or Simba or Thomas for Thomas the Tank Engine, which is not Disney. But I was like, I made everyone call me Aladdin or Simba. So but I don't think that's the same thing as a crush. I think I was just like, you know, they're living. Great li- well, debatable. |
| (Laughter) |
| Dana: They're cool, they're cool characters. |
| Tina: Yeah. |
| Lyonel: My first disney crush was Ariel from The Little Mermaid. I actually really had a crush on Ariel. But the more I think about it, the gayer I get-. |
| (Laughter) |
| Lyonel: Like I was so in love with her then I was like, I want to have a fin and I want to shell bra and I want a long hair to pull my comb through and I want to be able to walk one day and not be able to speak but like float away and swim down and see my sisters. And so like I got gay real quick but like-. |
| (Laughter) |
| Lyonel: I like innately loved her. |
| Aja: That's so funny that you had a crush on Ariel because I had a crush on Scuttle. |
| (Laughter) |
| Aja: Just kidding, I'm just kidding. |
| Tina: I want to believe it, though, Aja. |
| Lyonel: I believe it. |
| Dana: Yeah, I kind of do. |
| Aja: Okay, great. Go for it. That's fine. |
| Dana: I think you're kidding, but I kind of believe you. |
| Lyonel: I kind of really believe you. |
| Aja: I'll never tell. |
| Dana: Honestly when Ursula turned into a human, I was like, what's up? |
| Aja: What a babe, what a babe. |
| Lyonel: She WAS hot. |
| Dana: What's up? I really well- Aladdin was one. |
| Aja: Yes. |
| Tina: Yeah, I feel like that's a classic. Like Aladdin was objectively a hot cartoon. |
| Dana and Aja: Yes. |
| Dana: And then for some fucking reason, the Prince from Anastasia, there is something about him that was like- |
| Aja: Demitri? |
| Tina: Wait, the Prince or Demitri? |
| Dana: Oh, sorry Dimitri. |
| Tina: Demitri's hot. |
| Aja: Absolutely hot. |
| Tina: That 90s haircut? Come on. |
| Dana: Where they like- the animated hair, just like floofs onto their eyes or whatever. And I was just like I so what's going on? |
| Aja: You know what? Josh's hair is reaching a Demitri stage and I'm not mad about it. |
| (Oohs and Ahhs) |
| Aja: Give me that Devin Sawa bowl cut babyeee! |
| (Laughter) |
| Dana: Give me that Casper bowl cut. |
| Tina: I mean it's coming back. The middle part, the bowl cut, it's all on its way back. So. |
| Dana: It's bizarre for us cause it immediately puts us into prepubescent-like mind. |
| (Laughter) |
| Aja: It actually is traumatizing cause when I was, when it was hot, when we were like in fifth grade I couldn't, we didn't have the tools y'all to control our cow licks. So I couldn't do a middle part because the left side was like an inch off my head. And now-. |
| Dana: We didn't have social media, we just had to awkwardly stare. |
| Aja: We wrote paper notes. |
| Dana: We wrote paper notes. Do you like me ? Yes or no. Circle. |
| Aja: Disney crushes. This one's- Yeah. Aladdin for sure. Demitri also, for sure. I'm trying to think of other I love Simba, I mean, all of them had an element of me being like, oh, I love you. And I will say 101 Dalmatians still is my favorite Disney movie, animated Disney movie. And I am not mad about Rodge, the guy. So, Roger? |
| Tina: I feel like that tracks for you 100 percent. A tall, skinny man who plays the piano. |
| Aja: Yeah. |
| Dana: Oh, oh yeah. |
| Aja: Me-ow! Or rather, Woof Woof. |
| (Laughter) |
| Dana: And a little bit of trumpet. |
| Aja: Yes. Multitalented. |
| Dana: Yeah, right. |
| Aja: He also had floppy hair. |
| Tina: Yeah. This is true. |
| Dana: The fucking floppy hair. |
| Tina: I mean, I feel like I'm dating myself with mine because they're a little later. But I definitely had a crush on Li Shang from Mulan. |
| Aja: Yes. |
| Tina: When he takes his shirt off right before they sing. |
| Aja: YES! |
| Tina: Be a man- I'll make a man out of you. I was just like, oh my. OK. |
| Aja: HELLO! |
| (Laughter) |
| Tina: Interesting. Good to know. Yeah. |
| Aja: Got some feelings about that- OK, so what I'm hearing is there's not like one main crush. We all had crushes on many people in Disney movies. |
| Dana and Tina: Yeah. |
| Tina: Well also I feel like as a (Laughs) as a bisexual there were, there were a bunch that that like at the time I was like, I just want to be them. And now I'm like later I'm realizing like, oh no, no, no, that was a crush. That's what a crush was. You just like didn't know that was an option at the time. I had such a crush on Esmeralda. I can't even tell you I. I still love Esmeralda. |
| Lyonel: She was hot. |
| Aja: Hercule- |
| Dana: From Hunchback! |
| Aja: Oh, Hunchback. |
| Lyonel: (To Aja) Oh COME ON (Laugh) Hercules. |
| Dana: She so hot. |
| Lyonel: But what's Hercule's name. What was her name? |
| Aja: Meg. |
| Dana: Meg is hot too. |
| Aja: You know, I don't think Atlantis is Disney, but Kita from Atlantis was one that I was like- (Guttural noise) |
| Tina: There are lots of ladies in Atlantis too, like the blonde lady with the shoulder pads? And the mechanic lady- like all of them. I was just kind of like, okay, hello. |
| (Various hellos and laughter) |
| Tina: DM us on Instagram with your Disney crushes from when you were a kid. We want to know. We want to know what's up. |
| Aja: AND since it's Instagram, if you want to, like, send us your favorite moment of a character, I want to see like the moments in your mind of like, this moment is clear to me. |
| Tina: For example, Shang taking off his shirt and singing one of the greatest Disney songs of all time. |
| Dana: Right. The- for me Aladdin, where he goes. "Do you trust me?". |
| Aja: Oh yeah. |
| Lyone: Oh, I do love that moment. |
| Aja: Oh, that's a good moment. |
| Lyonel: Have you seen the memes right now where he's like, do you trust me? And Jasmine pulls back and she has hand sanitizer and she like- |
| (Laughter) |
| Dana: Nah, I'm good. |
| Lyonel: I trust this here alcohol. That's what I trust. |
| (Laughter) |
| Tina: Yeah. |
| Lyonel: That's hilarious. |
| Tina: This kind of like help, it's kind of an interesting segue into what we really want to talk about today, which is capitalism and how it is racist and capitalism used against communities of color. But what kind of spark this was Lyonel brought up the Cinderella from 2000- or from 1997 I think it was? . |
| Dana: Yeah, it's 1997. |
| Tina: Starring Brandy and Whitney Houston, which was just released on Disney+ for streaming. I've already watched it twice. It's a classic. |
| Aja: Ugh. So good. |
| Tina: Yeah, God, it's good. But just like, you know, I had heard some stories from that about like how at times how hard it was to get made and how the inclusiveness of the cast was seen as like a roadblock or a hurdle. So it just felt like, you know, from Disney to Cinderella to how capitalism is terrible and racist. When did you all grow up watching the Cinderella, the live action Cinderella ? |
| Dana: Yes, I have actually a very distinct memory of it because it was it's a pretty big staple in my formative years because I was like, whoa, these are people I don't see on TV very often. And it was. It was. It was almost like. It definitely made an impact in my- in my formative years, for sure. |
| Tina: Mm hmm. |
| Aja: Yeah, I remember seeing it. I don't remember it being a big. I remember seeing it, I don't remember how I felt about it. But I was a big Leslie Ann Warren version from like the 50s, it was my favorite. So I think I was like, oh, cool, a new one. And then just like went right back to my other one, with all the white people. WAH WAH baby Aj. |
| Lyonel: I remember seeing and I was like, this shit has changed the game. Like I remember being a child and like it was the first Disney movie that ever came out that felt normal, actually. Because a lot of times when you grow up in all white spaces and you're not white, it seems like, oh, great, that's a movie. Like, I'm going to look for the one part that looks like me, like it's so funny. I was watching RuPaul's Drag Race last night and Mamma Mia came on right after and my roommate had never seen it. But She was like "That's the whitest cast I've ever seen." The one with Meryl and then. And the opening number, when they're all arriving, like her homegirls. Everyone in the ensemble is like on the ships and they're singing, etc.. And there's one black character. On the side. |
| Aja: Yup! |
| Lyonel: One black. And I remember looking last night, I was like, yeah, they are, there's that token so that they didn't look racist. So seeing Cinderella was like the first time I was like, oh, this feels normal. It was a mixture of people. And when we talk about, like believing in magic, like that was the first time that like, as people of color, we were like, oh, that's magic. Like there's a black princess, like there's an Asian prince, there's a black queen. Like I remember. That's where magic really felt real. |
| Tina: Yeah. I mean, also talk about Disney crushes the prince from that Cinderella. I still have a crush on him. |
| Dana: OH, my God. Mama mia indeed! Sorry. |
| (Laughter) |
| Tina: Yeah. I remember in our house that Cinderella because we- I remember like we would watch it over and over again, but we had recorded it from one when it like aired on TV. So like all the commercial breaks were still in there. But in our house it's still referred to as "the real Cinderella." Like that's just what we called it, because obviously because we were kids and it's like live action and that's how we referred to it. But like. It IS for me, like it is the only Cinderella that I care about. It's it is the realest Cinderella to me because it's the best one. Also, like just as a movie, you know, representation aside, it fucking rules. It's so well-made, it's so well acted. The music's great, the costuming, the design, it's like SO good. I love it so much. |
| (Agreements) |
| Aja: And Speaking of capitalism, I'm right now trying to find out because that's Rodgers and Hammerstein. It's not Disney. I don't I'm trying to find out if Disney made it or if they have just claimed it and bought it. |
| Lyonel: Bought the rights for it. Hm. Interesting. |
| Aja: Yeah. |
| Tina: Yeah. Well, so they got the rights for it and and then they like had to work with Richard Rodger's estate to change lyrics in some stuff because some of the stuff just like either was bad or like didn't fit the story anymore. And then they added some songs from other Rodgers and Hammerstein or Rodgers and Hart musicals. Like the song Bernadette sings. They were just like, we need to give her a song because that character doesn't have a song in the original show. So they pulled a song from The Boys from Syracuse to give to Bernadette to sing, which I think is a total fucking showstopper. I think it's such. And the opening number too is pulled from another show. |
| Aja: Yeah, I was not what I- when I- Yes. Disney was part of it, but I can't tell when they came on. It was one of the production companies. ABC did it in eighty seven and then Disney is credited in '98 for home video. So maybe like the, the distribution. But yeah that's an interesting thing. Like one like that Disney was like, hey, we actually own Cinderella, so you can have your Rodgers and Hammerstein. But I wonder what that conversation looked like. |
| Dana: Yeah. |
| Aja: UGH. |
| Dana: I'm looking up like the the success of it, too. And it looks like Whitney Houston wanted it to be in the theaters, obviously. That didn't happen, but it broke records on TV. |
| Tina: Mm hmm. |
| Dana: Well, like the original did. |
| Aja and Tina: Yeah. |
| Aja: Well Tina, you told us about how they like they paid how they had to pay for the final day of shooting. |
| Tina: Yeah! So fucked up. I just like- because we were talking the other day about how at the end of the day, like production companies and people in power are like going to protect the interests of what they think is going to make the money. And especially at that time and I think still today, like inclusivity is not a thing that people think is going to make them money unless they can tokenize us in a way that, like, helps them sell us. So I think, like, basically there was resistance to spending more money on the movie because they had already, like, you know, maxed out their budget. But they needed extras for the final day of shooting to get full coverage for the wedding, which is like- like you got to have a crowd for the royal fucking wedding. |
| Aja: Just for people. |
| (Laughter) |
| Tina: Yeah. And they had already shot, like, half of it. So they needed to, like, have continuity and they refused to give them more money to hire extras. So Whoopi Goldberg basically, like, sent a bag of money to the production people and was like, hey, here's my contribution for extras for the final day, raise the rest. And eventually, like the producers themselves, had to pay out of pocket to get extras that final day. But like they were committed to making it happen because they knew how important it was and they knew that they had to make it look as good as possible because like, you know. Art, that doesn't fit a traditional, like, white centric mold of fairy tale. Like has to be so much better for people to even consider it as on par with other things, like we always have to be ten times better to be even considered. |
| Dana: Yeah. |
| Tina: Yeah. So I think they knew how important it was for it to be good. And I think people were really committed to like making sure that- that like people got to see this. Which, thank God, because it's like I think it's still one of my favorite movies of all time. I just watched it again recently shit holds up. It's so good, ugh, go watch it. |
| Aja: Yeah. If you haven't watched it, watch it. |
| Dana: It's an interesting thing, too, because it's something that we're told in the industry, too. Because, you know, if you make one character a lead, that is is brown, but then you have to make the other character white or else nobody's going to watch it. Like it's like something that we hear often, too. I remember- Ugh. God. This fuckin awful movie called The Gods of Egypt. |
| Tina: Hmm!! |
| Dana: That nobody, essentially nobody was Egyptian or Arab or or like literally African-American. Like nobody NOBODY was a brown person. And it was like. They said there that, you know, we couldn't you know, we couldn't cast somebody that isn't a big name for this. That's essentially like what they say. The director said something along the lines of I can't cast some nobody, Mohammed, to play this role. |
| Tina and Aja: Oh, my God. |
| Dana: Because, capitalism, right? They think, you know, these big names will draw in a lot of people. But guess what? If your movie is a piece of shit. |
| (Laughter) |
| Dana: It was a flop. Like it didn't matter. |
| Tina: Yeah. |
| Dana: Which is a frustrating thing because it was just like. Yeah, anyway. |
| Aja: Yeah. |
| Tina: I mean, it's like it's gatekeeping. It's like it's how money is used to keep people out of industries and keep people from advancing. Like how do you think people become big names? You hire them. |
| Dana and Aja: Right. |
| Dana: And you're going to continue to like hire the same white actors over and over and over again. That if that's your justification, you're never going to look for anybody else, ever. |
| Aja: Or you're going to pretend like you're looking for somebody else and then you're going to continue to cast. I mean, I don't know, raise your hand if you've gone in for roles any time in the last five years. And then when you see who actually booked it, it was some white blonde girl. |
| TIna: Oh, still, like more often than not, I would say. |
| Aja: Yeah, yeah. Almost almost every role that didn't specify in ethnicity or race that- |
| Dana: Open Ethnicity. |
| Aja: Always goes to a white person typ- usually blonde. |
| Lyonel: Mm hmm. You know, a bigger thing. And I'm going to like kind of expose this. I think people try to give this shit to TV film a lot, but as a stage actor and someone who's done stage, especially in a city that prides itself on being, you know, very stage-based first. There's a big problem in theater about casting the best or casting a specific ethnicity in a token position that I think is remnants of slavery. And what I'm saying by that is like Cinderella, they didn't cast people of color in terms of like the lead. They cast Brandy. Brandy had to establish herself as a specific kind of actress before even getting the opportunity. They cast Whitney Houston. They cast Whoopi Golberg like, yes, I get it was a cast of stars. But essentially you cast these black artists who specifically have had to, like, no longer even be seen as black. They are like icons at this point, you know what I'm saying? And I find that a lot in theater, I have had so many auditions that I've seen where they're like we're doing the all black version of three- Chekhov's Three Sisters and it's for anyone listening: That's Anton Chekhov is a playwright. And he wrote this play called The Three Sisters that's set with these girls who are in Russia. They want to go to Moscow, correct ? |
| Dana: Yeah. |
| Lyonel: But essentially, that show, if you do it outside of it's norm, you address like, oh, we're going to cast this show as dun-da-dun ethnicity. And so therefore it's like you're setting the precipice that the normality of that is not- is not of color. And therefore, like, you're going to make money off of it being with colored people like we're going to use the color as the spectacle to make people-. |
| Tina: Yeahhh. |
| Lyonel: And like that in itself is bred in from slavery. The idea, like you can only be in the room if you are the best dun-da-dun. Everything else, like you get discarded and removed. |
| Tina: Hmm. Well, it's like like using identity as a concept for production. Like we're doing the all black this or we're doing like a Latinx, you know, comedy of errors. Like that's your whole fucking concept. It's just that it's not white people. Like, that's not- that's not enough. |
| Dana: That's not an artistic concept. |
| Tina: Yeah. Yeah. It's like- that's like it feels akin to me to like even if you have a bunch of people like who represent that community, if the people producing it and the people in power are not of that community, it's tokenizing. And it's like akin to using, you know, race or identity as a costume. And that feels really disingenuous to me, even if it's like not all representation is the same. There's meaningful representation and then there's representation that's used to sell tickets to white people who want to, like, be voyeurs into a community. And the way those people interact or they they like to think that they interact. And I think a big way that a lot of the time too, people get around the idea of like inclusivity in casting and like, you know, sidelining people of color to like supporting roles and things. It's like they're like, well, I wouldn't buy that these people are related. Like they use family as an excuse. And I think that the one of the things that Cinderella does so fucking well as I buy that Victor Garber and Whoopi Goldberg have a Filipino son because they act like they're a fucking family. |
| Aja: Yep. Also, I'd love to show people a picture of my family. |
| Dana: Yeah, exactly! Like, fuck you!! |
| Lyonel: I buy that kids believe that because I believe that seven year old Lyonel believed that when he saw that. It takes an adult to be like, no, that's not the truth. |
| Dana: Bby Lyonel! |
| Lyonel: As kids- wittle wittle Wyonel! |
| (Laughter) |
| Lyonel: So like, you know what I'm saying? Like baby us, children us believe it. We're like- Because we're learning magic at the same time, like in the same episode that she has, they have a Filipino son, Whitney Houston does this. She spins her finger around and makes magic happen. And all of a sudden homegirl's got a dress on and these rats just became a pumpkin and a horse and carriage. So like it is society that teaches us like even with magic, you are not the norm. Or even with magic, we're going to make money off of this being different. And I think that that's the capitalism part of it, where it's like making money by keeping things as like a spectacle versus. |
| Aja: Yes! |
| Tina: Hmm. |
| Aja: Well, in that and that too. And I think maybe you said this and I missed it, but like. Doing an all buh-duh-da-du version, like an all Asian-American cast of something like. The- so many people are like, well isn't that a good thing? Like putting that into art? And it's like, no, because you're telling us our only place is if the whole thing is that. I think that's kind of what you were saying. But it's like, oh, you can't just cast me in the show. I can't just be included in, like, the quote unquote "normal production". Like, you have to make it special for it to be. And like, that's that capitalistic part of it, too. Is like if we're going to do this, we're going to make a statement about it and the performativeness of that, regardless of how well intentioned it is to say like, well, what if we just do an all? And then there's like lots of roles for people of color. It's like, no, just build people of color and to build space for people of color into your shows, period, and normalize it that way and train your audience who are usually, you know, depending on the theater, primarily older white folks like train them to accept that as normal because it should be normal. It IS normal. I mean, look at us having this conversation right now. |
| (Agreements) |
| Dana: But it's like even when you ask those creative people that are in charge of those those decisions or those creative decisions, you- when you ask why, they don't have a substantial response and if the why is "just because". Just because we can, there's a problem with that. There's an inherent creative problem with that, because it's like if you don't have a substantial why to something, you can't explain it, then why are you doing it? |
| Aja: Mm hmm. And also, I wonder how many productions of an all whatever cast of Three Sisters or Comedy of Errors or like whatever how much outreach there is to the communities that they're saying that they want to represent. Like catering to their white rich audiences versus being like, hey, we should bring in like we should have like a night or like we should extend tickets to whatever school so that these kids can, like, see representation or, you know, like do, you know, extend the access to people who would benefit from seeing people like them on a stage. |
| Tina: Yeah. |
| Dana: Yeah. Like we did we did a show, I did a show called We Live in Cairo and hands down, the best performance that we had ever had was a bunch of high schoolers. Hands-fucking-down. And they bussed them in and we were like, why are there not more shows like this? We need to like, to give access because it was thriving for us too, like we- we were like, we need this this all the time. There's more shows like this. |
| Aja: Yeah. We had a similar thing in Lowell with Cambodian Rock Band, a show I did. And yeah, the high school kids were the ones who were like- the like. They didn't know that much about it and then watched it and were like so impacted and we're like, oh, I've never seen a play with all Asians or like, you know, I've never seen and, you know, we had Asian kids be like, I've never seen anything like this. And like, it's so cool to see someone like me on the stage. |
| Dana: Yeah. |
| Aja: And we were like, come with us! Come do this! But yeah. |
| Tina: I feel like to-. |
| Aja: Show our kids. |
| Tina: Yeah, well, and I think like along with that, people get so or like, I guess, you know, theater and production companies get so stuck in, like, optics and what what like visible representation they're offering, you know, like shove a bunch of brown people on stage. But like our production crew and the producers and the theater company staff are still all like a homogenous group of white people, like because they are willing to put in, you know, diversity efforts when it comes to, like the cast, because that's what people are going to see so that they can get like a pat on the back for like, quote unquote, "doing the work". But they make no effort to do that within their organization or even in the people producing the thing. So, like, I'm all for like- I love to be in a cast like an affinity space of a cast where, like, it's all people, with whom I can relate to on that level. Like we all share something about our identity. But it feels weird to do that for a white production team. It feels like we're being used. |
| Dana: Yeah, yeah. |
| Lyonel: I'm sitting here thinking like I'm like, well, what's the what's the whim of capitalism? Now I'm where I'm like, let's make a positive. I'm like, OK, what is the what is the thing about capitalism that is- there has to be a breach in the system, right? Like, yes, we're like get rid of capitalism. But there has to be like something that's like there's a missing part or there's a missing. I think it is- is that capitalism is a swampland for micro aggressions. Because the point that you're making, Tina, it's really interesting. It's like as money is funneled down, as we quote unquote want to think to the people that need it- along the way or everybody being like serving mini micro aggressions, that in the moment we want to stop and fix like someone being like, but I need this job. I don't have another job. I've worked really hard. I went to school for this. I understand everyone should be given a fair chance, but like, I'm just showing up, trying to work. And so along the way, like, capitalism doesn't fire that person or capitalism doesn't not not hire that person. And so we have what then looks like a whole team of people that look alike, because if you take them as individual stasis, yeah, they did everything right. And like, they don't NOT deserve an opportunity. But I think that as long as micro aggressions are so prevalent, capitalism will never put money into something that it can grow and nurture- it will always give money into something that can keep refueling. It can keep giving to a system and a cycle that keeps paying for itself over and over again. And the people who actually need money don't get it. Their story just gets to get in the system, but they don't get to be part of the system. |
| Tina: Yeah. |
| Aja: Yessss. |
| Tina: Well, I think that speaks a lot to the fact, too, that like a lot of- not necessarily movements, but like we are taught, I think, as a country and as a- as a global community from an early age, that like success is defined by capitalistic terms. Success is defined by how much money you make, how like embedded in the system you are. |
| Dana: How much shit you have. |
| Tina: Yeah! How about like- like success is defined by capitalism. And I think even like within some kind of liberation movements, liberation is defined by capitalism in terms of like, well, if our community could only have, you know, access to the same money and resources, then like, you know, racism would cease to exist. Or like the fact that we- it's so hard to see beyond money as a means of, like, escaping bigotry. I mean, it just shows how embedded capitalism is our psyche. |
| Dana: In everything. |
| Aja: Everything. |
| Dana: It's literally everything. You're so right and you know, like- We define success that way, too. But if you look at artists in previous to us, a lot of them didn't become popular until after they were dead. And it's like it's because we measure success in that way. It's because we measure success by money. We measure success by these capitalistic terms or ways. But like if we- imagine if we just, like measured art by art? |
| (Laughter) |
| Dana: And not by the success that it brings, but rather like the ideas that it brings up or. Yeah, yeah. |
| Tina: Yeah. |
| Dana: Fuck. Frustrating. |
| Tina: I saw a tweet recently that the gist of it was basically like, y'all are so embedded in a capitalist framework that like even your activism and your personal liberation is like- and the way that you engage in activism is defined by it. You know, like and I think we see this in the way that- and I don't- this isn't necessarily to say that this is like the wrong way to communicate, but I think it is worth pointing out that it is embedded in capitalism- of people saying, like, it's not my job to do this. It's not like I'm not being paid for this time. So I shouldn't have to, like, educate you in this way. And I think like because we do live in a capitalist system that is, you know, I think a valid way of approaching things like it isn't my job and I shouldn't have to expend energy and time for which I'm not being paid to do work that you could do for yourself and educating yourself about racism. At the same time: Why am I defined and why do I have to be defined by what is my job? Why is my time so dependent on the money that I could be paid for it and my labor and how I contribute to the flow of money that I can't even engage empathetically with a person about an issue without being mad that I'm not being paid for my time. |
| Lyonel: Yeah, that, I mean that's that's the trap of it, right? Like I have (Laughs) I swear. And I hate- I don't hate this. It is what it is. If I met a guy on Tinder, and this bitch told me, (I mean, bitch in a friendly way) was like my credit score. There's a five hundred. I would- honestly my eyes would roll to the back of my head. |
| (Eruption of laughter) |
| Lyonel: I'd be like, oh no. |
| Dana: You need resuscitation. |
| Lyonel: But if I met a guy who was like, oh yeah, I have an 800 credit score. There is something that is trained in us that is the capitalist part of us, that it's like, oh, they're doing well, are they're doing- |
| Aja: (Laughing) Lyonel, just like, is credit score like a general question you ask people? |
| (Other join in laughing) |
| Dana: On your dates, is that, like the first thing you ask? |
| Lyonel: Well. If I have to ask, it probably won't have another date. You know what I'm saying? Like I need it to be, like-. |
| Aja: Last ditch effort. |
| Dana: Yeah. |
| Lyonel: Tell me something about yourself. Vegan. Allergic to Peanuts. 790. |
| Aja: I think that's a good point. A good point about dating in general. It's like the first time I will go to some- well I guess not even only dating or whatever, it doesn't matter. But like going into someone's house after I reached a certain age I was like, if you are still sleeping on a futon, like, I don't know that is going to work out. But like, why? |
| Tina: Because we're taught to believe that how much money someone makes is reflective of their-. |
| Aja: Success, Value. Yeah. |
| Tina: Whether how good of a person they are. |
| Aja: Yeah. |
| Dana: Which is fucked up because a lot of rich people are shitty. |
| Collective: Yeah. |
| Tina: And plenty of people who like aren't able to, you know, who are still sleeping on a futon because they can't afford a fucking bed because like the system takes their money and takes advantage of them and doesn't pay them enough for their time. |
| Aja: Or they just don't care. They spend their energy caring about other things. |
| Dana: Other shit. Yeah. Yeah. Or they're immigrants. Like my parents. Like shit like that. |
| Lyonel: My girl told me she went on a date with this guy and he had all this money and he lived. He was like I do all this dadadadada. Made her steak. Poured $70 red wine over the steak just because he could. And like, was doing the things with the hand. Girl, they went to his bed, his mattresses on the floor. On the floor?!? |
| (Laughter) |
| Lyonel: And not a modern bed. On. The ground. No box spring. Just mattress. And it's just like. Capitalism said, walk into my house, what do you see? I spent money on this, so therefore I am this, but like. Situationally, you're like- you aren't better, you just have things that make you appear better, and I think that's the part of the game and the structure and the system that it's like. You're alotted credit, so therefore you're like, oh, I have access to these things, I can have a better home, I can have a better car, I can get a loan out on this. I can, like, invest in these properties. But groups that aren't alotted investments don't ever build credit. And if they don't build credit they're seen in a system as less-than. And then they try to create a business, or they try to create something, they're not given the advantage because no one trusts them. No one believes them. So we're still instilling like a system of not trusting people because of the capitalist structure. |
| (Agreements) |
| Lyonel: And it still fucks people of color. |
| Dana: Did you see that? There was a news story that came out this week about a black couple trying to sell their home and they like they instead, I think, switched it up and had a white woman be the owner, like the quote unquote, "owner". And just the property skyrocketed. |
| Tina: I think it was like three ti- They got like three times as much. |
| Dana: Yeah. |
| Tina: Something absurd. |
| Dana: Yeah, wild. |
| Aja: Or like, yeah, not this past week. And I may be misremembering this, and I don't even know how to fact check myself, but I feel like I read something about a black couple replacing all the pictures in their home with white families. |
| Tina: Oh yeah, I saw that, too. |
| Aja: Like being like, well, we just won't be here for the showing. And all the pictures can be of white people and it'll be better. Like, WHAT THE FUCK AMERICA? |
| Lyonel: But that's where it's like- capitalism is inherently racist. |
| Collectively: Yeah. |
| Aja: It's SO racist. Yeah, well, and not like the- I think we talked about this early on, but the 1619 Podcast, where the last couple of episodes are talking about black farmers in America and how banks will fuck them over and like out of their land. Like ruin their lives because they can't get a loan and they won't say it. But it's because they're black and they want- you know, it's just like, the profit. I don't know where to go from there. |
| Tina: I mean, it's interesting, like, yeah, capitalism is fucking racist because it was built- like like the entire history of, like, colonialism, the history of the fucking world, the history of like Europe basically shitting all over the rest of the world and ruining like committing genocide. And like it was based around like earlier forms of capitalism, you know? Like, well, we want this land. We want spices. And they don't even fucking season their food. |
| (Laughter) |
| Tina: And like wanting commodities and wanting free labor. Like, it's all based on like how how can I use this thing to make myself money and to give myself a comfortable life in the society where, like, comfort is dependent on how much I can afford. So like, it's it's rooted in racism. It's rooted in like genocide. It's it's rooted in colonialism and it's just bad and it needs to go. |
| Everyone: Yeah. |
| Lyonel: You know, it's also interesting. It's like the other side of capitalism where where there's no other side. |
| (Laughter) |
| Lyonel: But I guess the point I'm making is: the heartbreaking side of it, where people are blindly trusting something and it is vehemently like making money off of it. What I mean by this, when I when I went to Thailand, I performed there years ago. |
| Tina: Oh, cool. |
| Lyonel: Actually, fact check myself. I performed in Malaysia and went to Thailand. I mean, I'm not- |
| (Laughter) |
| Lyonel: I'm not like on world tour, or anything like that. But a lot of the people in Thailand for the most part are like a little bit darker. And that's just like being in the sun, like having more exposure to sun. A lot of their creams have bleaching agents in them. |
| Tina: Yeah, same in India. |
| Dana: Japan, too. |
| Lyonel: And a lot of the companies that produce this are from other countries that have a huge industrial bust. And so they sell these products to these smaller companies, I mean, to these smaller countries, smaller places. And yet the people in that location wear those bleaching ointments, wear those lotions, wear those creams. Meanwhile, the people in the countries making these items don't wear these products, they also don't work in the sun and they're lighter complected like that was like a big thing when we were performing in China and Shanghai. Like a lot of the people there. I mean, they had umbrellas all day long. The sun was blazing and it was to block them from getting darker because and I asked my- the person assisting us backstage, she is Chinese. And I was just like, why is that ? She was like, it's because if you're darker, they know you work. And so therefore to stay light means that you don't and it means you are wealthier and it means you have more power, more money. So the idea of selling products that, you know, people who are dark complected want in order to appear more well-off is such a funnel of capitalism, that has- that really blew my mind. It's like a vulnerable group believing in the trust of government as opposed to like us four right now, breaking it down. Where we're like, cool, I see where the pauses and the breaks are. I think it's even more heartbreaking when it's like people who are like. I want it because I want to be in crowd and like you'll never be in crowd. Like they are funneling this, so you never win. |
| Aja: Yeah. |
| Tina: Yeah, I mean colorism and I mean all over the fucking world and in Asia is like a real problem. I mean, speaking from like an Indian perspective, like bleaching creams are a big deal. Like, you know, the people are constantly commenting on on your complexion. And like Bollywood stars are often much lighter skinned than like a lot of the people in India. And I like. I think colorism and racism obviously go hand in hand and using colorism as a way to like connect to how much wealth people have access to in terms of like value judgments and how much we value ourselves or how much we value we assign to other people. And then also using that to actually take people's money in order to look like you have that money, like it's fucking- it's fucking evil. |
| Aja: Well, and like also setting a standard of how beauty is perceived. Like, yes. Making people look wealthy. But also I see that person and the world loves that person. So the world is going to love me then I need to look like that. So yes, I will buy the products that make me look like that and hope that the world will love me more. Like it's so fucked on a psychological level. Yeah. |
| Lyonel: Which is actually why Cinderella was also really beautiful, like especially like a lot of being a dark skinned black man and like a lot of black, dark skinned black girls being like that movie is also special because Brandi is a darker skinned black woman playing this part because so many parts of slavery where you got to be lighter so you got to stay in the house. If you were darker, you were in the field. So it's also something really beautiful and magical about seeing a dark skinned woman getting to be a princess. |
| Aja: And an Asian man as a prince! As a loving interest. |
| Dana: Specifically Filipino, because that representation is almost like nonexistent in the sense. |
| Aja: Yeah. |
| Tina: And I remember reading a study not not super recently, but like it's come up. I've listened to a couple of, like, podcasts about this kind of stuff about how they did like there was a study done maybe like ten years ago about like who gets the most and the least attention on dating apps and the two communities that got the most negative attention or the least attention on dating apps was uniformly black women and Asian men. And so to have those two communities represented in like the ultimate fairytale, like romantic couple, whether that was their intention or not and I don't know, I recently read an oral history of the Cinderella and I did. |
| (Laughter) |
| Tina: It seems like it wasn't because they cast a wide net when they were casting the prince. But like, the fact that that happened is like- I don't it's just it's not subversive, but it's like a way of showing people in a subtle and like not preachy or not like heavy-handed way, like you are deserving of love and you are you know, you are deserving of beauty. You are beautiful no matter what people tell you. |
| Dana: You're MAGIC! |
| Tina: Yeah! |
| Aja: Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. |
| Dana: I would love to have a conver- like I would love to extend this conversation with the creators of that. Because I'm sure that they had to- they had to overcome so many hurdles and I'm sure so many capitalistic bullsh- like bullshit like came back to them, like this is never going to be money. You can't theatrically, like, release this. And it's just like over and over again. We have to prove ourselves and we have to prove that. |
| Aja: Crazy Rich Asians. |
| Dana: Yeah. Hmm. You have to have and they're measuring success again by how much money it's going to make too. But like, what if the art is just fucking good? |
| Aja: Yeah. |
| Tina: I mean, with Cinderella in particular, I did just because I watch it so recently, I did like I went down an internet deep dive. I read so much about the production of it. And like Whitney Houston was one of the producers, like it was her project. So, like, they already had her attached. She originally was going to play Cinderella. It just took so long to get made that like by then she was like, I'm too old to do that. I'll play the fairy godmother. But so she was already attached and she wanted Brandy. She was not willing to budge on that. And there was like one producer or one person from ABC who was like, what if we cast Jewel instead because we can't have like a black fairy godmother and a black princess and Whitney's like Absolutely not. And everyone else in the production team and the producers were like, yeah, absolutely not. Like Whitney wants Brandy. And like, this is the thing that we're going to do. This is the world we're going to create. |
| Aja: Can you imagine the audacity of telling Whitney Houston that? I cannot imagi- no. (Laughing) Jewel. |
| Tina: And it was because she was such a big name that they were like, we're not even going to, like, budge on this. We're going to do what she wants because this is her project and this is what she wants to do. |
| Aja: Right. |
| Tina: But she had to be like the most successful fucking artist in the world to make that to happen. |
| Dana: And it's hard because it's like, well, how do we become those voices in those rooms without all of the fucking attachments to it. |
| Aja: We don't. |
| Tina: By being exceptional. We have to be exceptional and without fault. |
| Dana: Flawless. |
| Tina: And like, I mean, the story of Whitney Houston fucking is so tragic, too, because, like, she wasn't able to be her full self. |
| Dana: Yeah. |
| Tina: During her life at all, I think, for fear of losing that. Of losing that like feeling of exceptionalism or like being taken down even a peg in the public's eyes. |
| Dana: Right. |
| Lyonel: Including like her relationship with another woman. Thats like, a heavy prevalent part of her identity. I think it's like the thing with capitalism, it's, again it's when does it work or when could it work? And I think capitalism only makes sense if it's never going to go away. It has to funnel into communities where it can help that community in form versus just funneling into opportunities that continue to fuel the cycle. Like if you create a network where you're like, we're going to pay into this community because they don't have a lot of representation and then you just support them creating stories and different obstacles and different things that we get to just see them be people, being people, being people that is like capitalism working. And that's how you take a money industry and you fuel it into identities and people of color as opposed to the opposite, which is like I'm going to funnel it into this thing to make money off of you being of color, you know? |
| (Agreements) |
| Lyonel: That's like the flip of that. |
| Aja: It has to- there has to be a level playing field. |
| Tina. Yeah. |
| Aja: And there isn't. By any standard. |
| Tina: Dana sent us- also based on what Aja, you brought up when we were talking the other day, just about like health care and Dana sent this, I think it was it a tweet? Or you send us a screenshot of something which was basically like. I want health care, who's going to pay for it? I'm already fucking paying for it, but my money is going to like fund the military, you know, murdering Palestinian people, like. |
| Aja: Yep. |
| Tina: Like, you know, I don't think there is a way for capitalism to be ethical at all. I think it just needs to go. And I like, you know, that's just where I'm at with it. But like, at the very fucking least, our money should go to help us. Our money should go to things. |
| Dana: Right. We care. |
| Tina: Serve the community. |
| Dana and Aja: Yeah. Yeah. |
| Tina: Instead of like, you know, using it to fund our interests, you know, in fucking oil or in murdering brown people like that, you know. That is unconscionable, let alone the system of capitalism as a whole. Like, we have so many steps to go before we even can start dismantling so many system. |
| Aja: Yeah, well, and just for for everyone's knowledge, Actors Equity is a union for stage actors, of which I am, I think I don't know. It doesn't matter. I'm part of it. My health insurance was from it and I lost that coverage. Basically, you get it. I don't know how all unions work. Maybe this is how all unions work. But for our union, you have access to health care. If you work a certain amount of weeks and contribute back to the union, make sense, right ? OK, I lost that coverage because theatre has been closed. |
| Dana: Can't work. |
| Aja: For over a year. We CANNOT work. Or if we can, it's like for- whatever. Basically I got an email about COBRA, you know, extending the health care that you have and the rate monthly rate for my- for me to continue the health insurance I had from actor's equity was a thousand dollars a month, one thousand dollars a month. For an industry that is dead at this particular moment, there's no- that's assuming like what? How are we? How? How do they anticipate people being able to pay for that? |
| Dana: Which leads me to- I saw this other tweet, too, that was just like literally nothing in this country fucking works unless it is policing like equality (laughs) like nothing. Nothing worked in this country, including Texas recently. Nothing fucking worked in health care. Not- not. Literally nothing worked. Nothing went flawlessly. Except beating the fuck out of people like us who are fighting for rights. Like that, that's the only thing that went out without us, like without a hitch this year. |
| Aja: Well, and we'll talk to that end. Oh, sorry Tins. |
| Tina: Oh, no, you go. |
| Aja: Just to that end in Texas, the communities that were affected the most- in the like the most were marginalized communities. |
| Tina: Yeah. And it's a problem that is entirely rooted in capitalism. |
| Aja: Yes! |
| Tina: It's not the weather's fault. It's not renewable energy. |
| Aja: No! |
| Tina: It's the fault of the people who decided to deregulate energy and the grid in Texas so that a few people made a lot of money in order to like, support the fossil fuel industry in the state like and that's why people are without power. Now we're suffering. |
| Dana: Fully knowing that that climate change is- will bring like more and more terrible weather their way. They KNEW that. Of course they knew that going into this. |
| Aja: And there are companies now, electric companies in Texas that are like, please leave our company because the- your bills are going to- like one company was like they could go as high as nine thousand dollars for your electric bill when you didn't have electricity! You didn't have electricity. We did not provide the service. So please leave. So you don't get charged more than you make in three months, five months, six months, depending on how much money you make. Like, how- UUUUGHHHH. |
| Dana: None of this shit is working. None of it. |
| Lyonel: There's a there's an aloofness and there's a pessimism that comes with being capitalist. Like capitalism has this like Oh, I didn't know. But also, like, I get to be judgmental and everyone else has to reap- has to reap the repercussions of that. And that fucking blows. |
| Dana: Yeah. |
| Lyonel: You know, I don't like to say our last president's name, but people have such I, I dislike him as much as I dislike Governor Abbott. (Laughs) Like there are- Our last president wasn't alone and structures that were created and being uplifted by people who weren't looking out for the best interests of the people that they serve service. |
| Dana: Absolutely not. He absolutely had help. And it existed before him, too! Yeah, yeah. |
| (Murmurs of agreement) |
| Tina: Well, because, like some people get to be super comfortable and have super easy lives because of the way the system is set up at the expense of so many other people. |
| Aja: Oh, like Senator Ted Cruz? |
| Tina: Who? Never heard of em. |
| Lyonel: Did you see his dog? That he left behind? |
| (Gasps) |
| Dana: Yeah, he left his dog in a cold house. And he left his entire state full of people dying. |
| Aja: He left his state. To go to Mexico. To escape. |
| Tina: His responsibility. |
| Aja: His LITERAL job. |
| Dana: His literal job, like bringing the disease to America, which is already an issue. |
| Lyonel: Mexico, only counts when they want to get out of the country like that is so... |
| Aja: Yeah, all the memes that were like, oh, Ted Cruz and his family fled Texas to have access to- |
| Tina: To a better life in Mexico. |
| (Laughter) |
| Tina: And to like the whole and this is like going beyond just the Ted Cruz thing, but like people having been traveling to Mexico throughout this pandemic and like infecting. You know, like Tulum had a huge outbreak because, like, white people couldn't resist traveling to Tulum to, like, escape their pandemic lives because they had the privilege to do so. But like, then people justifying that by saying like, well, they rely on a tourist economy, you know, like this is killing their economy to not have tourism. So we're going to help by being tourists and infecting people there. Like, again, that's capitalism being fucking evil. If your entire economy is dependent on tourism and during a pandemic, you cannot receive the relief that you need? That's fucked up. |
| Dana: Yeah. And the tourism aspect of that, like, I just feel like I keep having the same conversation over and over again where it's like the problem is bigger. You have to like, look past like these problems that are right in front of us. Our systems don't fucking work for most people. Like that is the bottom line. And that's the thing that we should be focusing on. Like. |
| Lyonel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. |
| Tina: And the people it is working for are the people that are in power and get to keep making the decisions. And that's got to change. |
| Dana: Yeah. |
| Tina: Because for them there's no problem with it because they're perfectly happy and comfortable with it. |
| Dana: Yeah. Until they catch COVID or until, like climate change kills us all. Like what? What are we going to do? Like- |
| Lyonel: We've got to- there's only one thing TO do y'all. We got to keep making versions of Cinderella. |
| (Laughter and agreement) |
| Tina: I mean, that's as good a place as any to a reasonably depressing note. But also, capitalism sucks! Let's end it! |
| Dana: Let's change our systems from inside! |
| Lyonel: Yeah!! |
| Tina: Action items this week: Just help out as much as you can with mutual aid in Texas. That's the quickest way to get like resources to people that need it. |
| Aja: Yes!! |
| Tina: So I'll put a link to a bunch of different collections of resources. There's- I've got some resources on mutual aid for queer, black and indigenous folks. I've got some resources for just general mutual aid. So take a look at those. There's some like CashApp and Venmo places and some like GoFundMe places. And also a wealth of information on what's happening there and why it's so fucked up. |
| Aja: Everyone should get solar panels!! Because it's going to keep happening. |
| Dana: Yeah. |
| Tina: Mm hmm. |
| Aja: And you know what, y'all, if you're listening and you like what you hear, please, rate, review and subscribe for us! We'd really appreciate it. |
| Tina: Pretty. Pretty, please. |
| Lyonel: And until next time: this is We the People, where we like to keep it fresh, funky and always unfiltered. Till next time! |
| Aja: (Scream Singing) |
| (Laughter) |
| Dana: There she is! |
| Tina: Wider vowels please, wider vowels. |
| Aja: (SCREAMS) |
| Dana: I thought you said "Wider Bowels"! |
| (Laughter) |
| Dana: We circle- we circle back to poop. |
| Aja: Just uh- just uh- just uh- blowing up that bathroom. |